Exhaust Manifold stud gawn?

cmm303 · Post by **cmm303** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:36 pm

Sorting through photos of me cooling system work so I know how to put it all back together and there seems to be an extra hole

....

One thinks one knows what this means. Right?

Seems so obvious when sitting at 'puter. Can't think why I didn't notice when I had my head in there.

cmm303 · Post by **cmm303** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:59 am

Checked out the fact sheet on the Exhaust Manifold and the link to pictures is not behaving like a link. Trying to sort out in my mind what I need to do with the turbo. It hasn't got any coolant pipes to constrain.

The fact sheet talks about undoing the exhaust. I've also seen a youtube vid where he kept the exhaust end in place but split the turbo in two, allowing the air intake end to ease back. He slid out a gasket between the two halves - would this be reusable?

Post by **Simon Jones** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:02 pm

Don't split the turbo but you could unbolt it from manifold.

cmm303 · Post by **cmm303** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:24 pm

Thanks. I'll avoid that.

Finding machine shops reticent about skimming a manifold. Need to see it before committing.

Northern Bongolow · Post by **Northern Bongolow** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:53 pm

this may have some info in it like what studs to get etc.
i have 2 machined manifolds if your stuck for one.

i found splitting the turbo the best easiest option myself, i reused all the metal gaskets apart from the head to manifold gasket, fit all new studs if you want to be sure as i found the other end (pot 4 ) was stretching too, you can just see it in the pics in the link below.

if you split the turbo as below you can leave both the oil pipes and the coolant system intact, but your already drained so i wont affect you.

http://www.igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/ ... ud#p418217.

top tip. one of the turbo mounting bolts is a real barsteward to get off as its mounted from the inside,

cmm303 · Post by **cmm303** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:47 am

Northern Bongolow wrote:this may have some info in it like what studs to get etc.
i have 2 machined manifolds if your stuck for one.

i found splitting the turbo the best easiest option myself, i reused all the metal gaskets apart from the head to manifold gasket, fit all new studs if you want to be sure as i found the other end (pot 4 ) was stretching too, you can just see it in the pics in the link below.

if you split the turbo as below you can leave both the oil pipes and the coolant system intact, but your already drained so i wont affect you.

http://www.igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/ ... ud#p418217.

top tip. one of the turbo mounting bolts is a real barsteward to get off as its mounted from the inside,

thanks so much for the offer. I have a couple of local contacts to follow first. Manifold is warped. Stud 8 broke as I was removing the manifold.I'll check the others.

I ended up taking the top oil pipe off the turbo and swinging the whole thing out of the way. How stiff should the waste gate be? Didnt want to force anything and it wasn't going to move by hand. Tried popping out the rod from the lever at the exhaust end of the turbo, but clearance was tight and I would have had to prise the lever away from the body. Not sure how rough I can be.

Northern Bongolow · Post by **Northern Bongolow** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:11 pm

the waste gate should be really free as its operated on positive pressure , the pressure needed to move it is in the manual it states 112 -121 kpa or 17.5 psi. dont over pressure or you may damage the actuator. disconnect the rod to see if its that that is stiff or the pivot for the wastegate itself, this is usually the case.

cmm303 · Post by **cmm303** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Carrying on from some discussion in another thread ...

Advice is largely consistent, including the grin on my local garage man's face (who used to own a Bongo). Perhaps that was why he was so nice about getting the manifold faced. Spoken with the company (http://www.brokenstudandboltremoval.co.uk) pointed to in the other thread, based in Liverpool, travel for ships, airplanes etc. where there is big money.

I'll post a pic as soon as poss. Not taken any of the hole close up - not my proudest moment. Stud and extractor are recessed

I've tried:

Tapping the slither that was left proud - broke off (predictable)
Drilled a divot on the edge of the extractor to knock it round. Just kept flattening my punch and I got fed up after regrinding it twice without any results
Bought several solid carbide drills
Flattened the surface with a small grinding stone, worked well but had to stop because stone was conical and getting close to hole perimeter.
Tried to drill down the side of the extractor; the plan was to release the extractor a bit; should be nearly 2mm around the edge of the extractor before touching the thread and helicoil is an option; 1.5mm drills just broke; my small drill is running out of true so replacing that (HSS tolerates it);
Drilled a centre with a 3.5mm and then went at it with a 5.5mm. Hard to tell but probably took out 3mm before giving up with a dulled drill. (So much for a post on tinternet that said these solid carbide drills went through an eazy-out like a knife through butter)
Nothing left to stick in the end of a drill!

Nothing got remotely hot during the above. I used WD40 to lube because a) I want shot of it and b) it is in a squirty can. But that's also finished now. Don't have cutting fluid.

I'm thinking about:

Drilling round the edge was my garage's favoured approach. Maybe with more drills and a new drill I would have more success with this approach.
Also wondered about exploiting the dip left by the 5.5mm drilling and with a really small diamond grinder try to make a slot across the edges of the dip. Then see if I can dislodge the extractor with a screwdriver or even an impact driver. 1.5mm diamond ball grinders ordered.
I had read that grinding is laborious but works, and my first made a difference. An aircraft engineer, he recommended using a ball shaped grinder preferably just a bit larger diameter than the extractor. Diamond version and similar shaped carbide burr bit on the way but could not find one in 4mm. Hoping that at some point not too far down I would reach where the tapered extractor is narrower than the bore it is stuck in. Hmmm, at that point it would just rotate and not cut and possibly get pressed against the end of the hole in the head which would not be good. But surely there would be a noticeable crack/gap around it. Hope so

I shall use water with diamond grinders, not oil.

I have not yet researched the specialist companies, assuming they need the head off.

Post by **Bob** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:10 pm

Very thorough update, thanks Chris.

cmm303 · Post by **cmm303** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:49 pm

Pics of de hole with extractor inside after drilling with a 5.5mm bit:

Slightly different angle

Definitely some inconsistencies in the material 10-12 O'clock in the drilled area. Bearing mind that I had only drilled up to 3.5mm dia, correction it was 4mm, before inserting the extractor, and the cone in view is from the 5.5mm bit.

Northern Bongolow · Post by **Northern Bongolow** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:33 am

get on with it man, whats up with yer. on the plus side at least your centred so just keep going. use an old stud to get your depth as you dont want to go too deep.

it may be an advantage to collapse inwards the outer ring thats left after its been drilled, drill out as large as you can then collapse in the remaining, it all weakens the grip on the extractor, i have used a fine pin punch in the past to do this to try to get between the stud threads and the head thread, once you break it inwards it comes out in lumps.

if it makes you feel any better when the wifes stud broke i looked at the job for a week, got some special fine drill from rolls royce aero

then sought advice from an engineer of bodging, then got him to hold my hand while i did the job.

top tip time
just thought i would mention in case your not aware that when putting back together that there are 2 types of studs, cold side and hot side studs, cold side are for the inlet manifold side and hot side for the exhaust manifold side, they are made from special grade stuff to help with the heat expansion etc.

cmm303 · Post by **cmm303** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:24 am

Thanks for the healthy encouragement. It is 4 decades since I did engineering, and that was with GKN Fasteners division. How appropriate!

Been checking depth, nowhere near. Photo is deceptive.

New drill bits should arrive today so hope to put in an hour after work. To put this in context, the cone was result of an hour of drilling with a £12 carbide bit. Stopped when I hadn't got swarf out for about 10 mins.

"Fine punch". That would be a punch made with fine wine? Dreadful waste!! Need to buy that. Certainly got 6mm drill and a handful of carbide 6.8mm which would take it right out to the thread. Then I'll see how good my centring was, which has been a constant battle.

I'll ask the supplier of my new studs, mazdabongo, to confirm they are hot side ones. They came with the gaskets so should be unless they are deceiving customers. [edit]. Supplier says that their supplier describes them as "manifold studs". Hmmm. On the other hand they say they use them all the time on their engine rebuilds and had no problems. They came with copper nuts.

cmm303 · Post by **cmm303** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:15 pm

Maybe I'm posting this too soon but .....

Using this little diamond thingy and a £15 not-a-dremel from ebay the neighbours probably thought I had taken up dentistry

and with a little tidying with a rod shaped diamond grinder I created a slot in the extractor

20 minutes later after freeing up my completely seized impact hammer, in 5 mins I had this, once I had extracted the stuck screwdriver bit from the hole with mole grips

. Also it only took little taps to get this result.

To me that looks like movement which is pleasing though it looks like the extractor has gone further in. Nevertheless that helps to differentiate stud from extractor and I can get to work on the sidewalls to free it up more.
Big thanks to Northern B for encouraging me to take a photo, albeit for posting here for a laff

, but photos have turned out to be really helpful in seeing what's going on.

Post by **Bob** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:19 pm

Very valuable, thanks Chris.

Northern Bongolow · Post by **Northern Bongolow** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:39 am

yeh bob we all need a good laugh.

looks like your lucky, the person who put the stud in put it in the correct way round, if i remember right there is a long thread (out) and a short thread (in). it doesnt show it on here but it shows the 2 part numbers for the different studs.

http://lushprojects.com/bongopartsmk2/c ... no=.html#6.

if you put the studs in right they dont bottom out and hit the base of the hole in the head, this leaves a cavity at the head end, this is where your extractor may have gone in.

Exhaust Manifold stud gawn?

Exhaust Manifold stud gawn?

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