mould on elevating roof

[Ron Miel]

But Hydrogen Peroxide is a bleach so not quite sure what your saying .....

What I am saying is:

""Nearly all living things (specifically, all obligate and facultative aerobes) possess enzymes known as catalyse peroxidases, which harmlessly and catalytically decompose low concentrations of hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen."

Wikipedia, as above

..... yes Sodium hypochlorite does also degrade fibre....

Where does also fit in here Geoff? See the Wikipedia extract I've just pasted in above, taken from one of the sources you quote. Hydrogen peroxide does not degrade fibre, due to its catalytic breakdown as explained there, and that's why it's the professionals' method of de-moulding tent fabrics - and yes, the web is full of peeps promoting their use of Dettox, Dettol, or other sodium hypochlorite-based mould and mildew remover sprays but unfortunately that does not make it the right thing to do.

Dettol mould and mildew remover, contains 2.6% by volume sodium hydrochlorite (http://www.dettol.co.uk/mould-and-mildew), about the same as the recommended hydrogen peroxide solution strength - but sodium hydrochlorite is not biodegradeable, and therefore is not suitable for use on fabrics, whereas hydrogen peroxide is both of those things.

Chlorine bleach, based on sodium hypochlorite, is cheaper, and specifically due to it not being biodegradeable, it stores better - hence its common domestic and industrial usage. Due to its biodegradeability, hydrogen peroxide solution, used to clean fabrics is not only safer and non-destructive, it's better for the environment.

As you say, even full strength domestic bleach only contains between 3% and 6% sodium hypochlorite, i.e., not much stronger than the Dettol spray. Regarding domestic bleach, Wikipedia says:

"In household form, sodium hypochlorite is used for removal of stains from laundry. It is particularly effective on cotton fiber, which stains easily but bleaches well. Usually 50 to 250 mL of bleach per load is recommended for a standard-size washer. The properties of household bleach that make it effective for removing stains also result in cumulative damage to organic fibers, such as cotton, and the useful lifespan of these materials will be shortened with regular bleaching........ Old T-shirts and cotton sheets that rip easily demonstrate the costs of laundering with household bleach."

Whatever you might think based only on visual inspection, you are cumulatively weakening your AFT fabric. It might not catch you out during the life of the Bongo in your hands but one day, in a strong blow say, it might. It's your choice to risk it but why discourage other peeps from using the environmentally friendly solution, also entirely free of damage risk?

Don't know what Mike meant BTW, saying he couldn't source 3-6% hydrogen peroxide solution, if that was indeed what he meant. All chemists and hairdressing supply firms sell it over the counter, and the Amazon link I gave leads to 20-odd cheap online sources.

'nuff said, for my part anyway, just hoping it might now prevent at least some unnecessary use of chlorine bleach in cleaning AFT fabrics. If peeps do continue using it, in that confined AFT space, wearing a face mask would be a good idea, as there are also Wikipedia allusions to possible carcinogenic effects.

Cheers, David

[mikeonb4c]

But Hydrogen Peroxide is a bleach so not quite sure what your saying .....

What I am saying is:

""Nearly all living things (specifically, all obligate and facultative aerobes) possess enzymes known as catalyse peroxidases, which harmlessly and catalytically decompose low concentrations of hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen."

Wikipedia, as above

..... yes Sodium hypochlorite does also degrade fibre....

Where does also fit in here Geoff? See the Wikipedia extract I've just pasted in above, taken from one of the sources you quote. Hydrogen peroxide does not degrade fibre, due to its catalytic breakdown as explained there, and that's why it's the professionals' method of de-moulding tent fabrics - and yes, the web is full of peeps promoting their use of Dettox, Dettol, or other sodium hypochlorite-based mould and mildew remover sprays but unfortunately that does not make it the right thing to do.

Dettol mould and mildew remover, contains 2.6% by volume sodium hydrochlorite (http://www.dettol.co.uk/mould-and-mildew), about the same as the recommended hydrogen peroxide solution strength - but sodium hydrochlorite is not biodegradeable, and therefore is not suitable for use on fabrics, whereas hydrogen peroxide is both of those things.

Chlorine bleach, based on sodium hypochlorite, is cheaper, and specifically due to it not being biodegradeable, it stores better - hence its common domestic and industrial usage. Due to its biodegradeability, hydrogen peroxide solution, used to clean fabrics is not only safer and non-destructive, it's better for the environment.

As you say, even full strength domestic bleach only contains between 3% and 6% sodium hypochlorite, i.e., not much stronger than the Dettol spray. Regarding domestic bleach, Wikipedia says:

"In household form, sodium hypochlorite is used for removal of stains from laundry. It is particularly effective on cotton fiber, which stains easily but bleaches well. Usually 50 to 250 mL of bleach per load is recommended for a standard-size washer. The properties of household bleach that make it effective for removing stains also result in cumulative damage to organic fibers, such as cotton, and the useful lifespan of these materials will be shortened with regular bleaching........ Old T-shirts and cotton sheets that rip easily demonstrate the costs of laundering with household bleach."

Whatever you might think based only on visual inspection, you are cumulatively weakening your AFT fabric. It might not catch you out during the life of the Bongo in your hands but one day, in a strong blow say, it might. It's your choice to risk it but why discourage other peeps from using the environmentally friendly solution, also entirely free of damage risk?

Don't know what Mike meant BTW, saying he couldn't source 3-6% hydrogen peroxide solution, if that was indeed what he meant. All chemists and hairdressing supply firms sell it over the counter, and the Amazon link I gave leads to 20-odd cheap online sources.

'nuff said, for my part anyway, just hoping it might now prevent at least some unnecessary use of chlorine bleach in cleaning AFT fabrics. If peeps do continue using it, in that confined AFT space, wearing a face mask would be a good idea, as there are also Wikipedia allusions to possible carcinogenic effects.

Cheers, David

I was referring to the Astonish spray Ron (pretty obvious from my post?). I'm with Geoff on this. I understand the theoretical points, but don't think they are sufficient for me to to want to worry about (used the Dettol twice in 4 yrs, and rinsed thoroughly each time). For those with time and determination though, peroxide seems the way to go as teh substance of choice.

[Bongopoet]

Oil of cloves certainly works for us and involves no nasty chemicals. Smells a bit to begin with but better than musty fungal smell.

[Ron Miel]

>
>
.........I'm with Geoff on this. I understand the theoretical points, but don't think they are sufficient for me to to want to worry about (used the Dettol twice in 4 yrs, and rinsed thoroughly each time). For those with time and determination though, peroxide seems the way to go as teh substance of choice.

Understood Mike, although using hydrogen peroxide solution takes no more "time and determination", once you've bought the stuff, and that's just on the application side - add in all that extra rinsing, and I bet that gives me more time to get down the pub, while you're still washing and drying the old AFT.

H2O2 breaks down into H2O and O, so it doesn't really need rinsing at all - just make sure the air gets to it a day or two later to remove the harmless residual H2O, and job done.

Geoff said "four times or so a year in our case", so that's a somewhat different theoretical can of worms to yours. Your choices anyway, of course, but I still can't see the point, and it's not good advice for new peeps.

I've only had to do mine twice in three years but can you really tell me why I should use Dettol Mould and Mildew Remover instead of a weak hydrogen peroxide solution, even so? That was my point, not that your AFT's are about to disintegrate - I hope they won't ever..

[mikeonb4c]

but can you really tell me why I should use Dettol Mould and Mildew Remover instead of a weak hydrogen peroxide solution, even so?

Easy availabilty, is the frank answer!

I think that whatever you use, it is wise to rinse afterwards, as excess oxidising agent will go on to oxidise anything it can find, causing unnecessary detioraration in a fabric (though as you say, I think the chlorine based bleaches are more pernicious in action).

But, with common sense, I think any of the alternatives can be used (must try clove oil - bought some, but the kids nicked it!).

The most serous downside of the Dettol stuff is I think the respiratory problems from using it in a confined space. Care is needed!!!!!

[g8dhe]

Right back from our travels, and the point you make above Mike is where I came in, its quite simply the easiest and available, OK it has a downside in that it causes harm to the fibres, but its neither instantaneous harm and after 4 years still not showing harm, so whilst if you have access to Hydrogen Peroxide and can get it in a spray bottle then it may well be a better solution, if you don't have access then a visit to most supermarkets will find you the Dettol solution. OK enough from me.

[Velocette]

We've just got back from France and every morning there was condensate on all the metal and glass parts of the roof, enough to create a very damp atmosphere if left shut in. If you have time, dry it off before folding the roof down but I confess that I didn't as we had a boat to catch.

Thanks for the reminder, my roof is going up tonight!

[Posset]

I tried the Hydrogen Peroxide 3% (found in the local pharmacy) and it did improve the look of the fabric in the AFT although some marks remain. Maybe I didn't catch it early enough. I then bought a Humydry Optimo dehumidifier to keep in the van when it's not in use - every day there is some water collected in the drip tray from the dissolved crystals so it must be doing some good. Does anyone else have experience of using dehumidfiers?

[Ron Miel]

but can you really tell me why I should use Dettol Mould and Mildew Remover instead of a weak hydrogen peroxide solution, even so?

Easy availabilty, is the frank answer!

I think that whatever you use, it is wise to rinse afterwards, as excess oxidising agent will go on to oxidise anything it can find, causing unnecessary detioraration in a fabric (though as you say, I think the chlorine based bleaches are more pernicious in action).

But, with common sense, I think any of the alternatives can be used (must try clove oil - bought some, but the kids nicked it!).

The most serous downside of the Dettol stuff is I think the respiratory problems from using it in a confined space. Care is needed!!!!!

Right back from our travels, and the point you make above Mike is where I came in, its quite simply the easiest and available, OK it has a downside in that it causes harm to the fibres, but its neither instantaneous harm and after 4 years still not showing harm, so whilst if you have access to Hydrogen Peroxide and can get it in a spray bottle then it may well be a better solution, if you don't have access then a visit to most supermarkets will find you the Dettol solution. OK enough from me.

OK Mike and Geoff, that's why you use it and fair enough but it durned tootin' sure isn't why I should use it, nor any other peep who understands that hydrogen peroxide is equally easily available - and BTW, application of a chlorine bleach product by spray in confined spaces is the very worst way to use it. At least peeps, spray it into a cloth, then wipe it on the AFT inside fabric, if you value your lungs, eyes, etc.

For supermarket, just read chemist - any chemist, probably including chemists inside supermarkets They sell hydrogen peroxide solution over the counter to colour hair (usually with a separate dye), orally treat gingivitis, soften ear wax (Otex drops), clean contact lenses, oxygenate water and prevent fungal infections in aquatics, add to food to slow metastatic cancer spread....and, did I mention, to clean tent fabrics, where it is very easy to use? It's all there in Google, plus many other safe uses.

On a somewhat extreme tangent but illustrating the same principles: at our son's wedding this year, we met his new wife's brother, up from Oz. He lives there now, partly due to a serious falling out with his parents while still at school. Reason? He's totally bald, due to joining a pop star-imitating hair bleaching gang at school, who did not know the difference between hydrogen peroxide and chlorine bleach, and just slapped the latter on each other's heads, after school one day. All of them were hospitalised to the nearest burns unit that evening, and apparently there's not a hair follicle between them now. Totally true, and a great pity = I thought he was a nice bloke

[mikeonb4c]

I tried the Hydrogen Peroxide 3% (found in the local pharmacy) and it did improve the look of the fabric in the AFT although some marks remain. Maybe I didn't catch it early enough. I then bought a Humydry Optimo dehumidifier to keep in the van when it's not in use - every day there is some water collected in the drip tray from the dissolved crystals so it must be doing some good. Does anyone else have experience of using dehumidfiers?

There was some debate on here a while back about using cat litter (cheap Value brand is best apparently) and putting it in suitable 'breathing' bags (pillow cases maybe). Cheap, self contained and might be v. effective. In theory, can be reused by putting the bags in a hot dry place to drive off the water in the pellets. An experiment waiting to be carrried out for anyone up for it!?! I think I'd put the bags on trays in the roof in case dusty material comes out and gets on the bedding, or the pellets get too wet and start to leach material.

I'm no expert on them, but I imagine you'll always get water out of a dehumidifier, as long as there is humidity - if you get me

PS - drop it Ron - I surrender!

[Ron Miel]

We've just got back from France and every morning there was condensate on all the metal and glass parts of the roof, enough to create a very damp atmosphere if left shut in. If you have time, dry it off before folding the roof down but I confess that I didn't as we had a boat to catch.

Thanks for the reminder, my roof is going up tonight!

Dunslair's input earlier is probably the best answer to that, open the roof hatch (not the roof, in order to keep the air volume down), after removing the mattress and other clutter up there, and run your air con/climate control to thoroughly dehumidify the whole van. If you do that regularly in normal, non-camping use, it's definitely the best way to stop fungal spores getting a grip up there in the first place. I've only had to do small amounts of de-moulding twice in three years, and we've done a lot of camping.

Running the aircon regularly, is also important to prevent aircon pressure seals drying out - if they do, it's a very expensive job to get it working again. So running it often is a win-win - no mould and no seal failures.

[Ron Miel]

I tried the Hydrogen Peroxide 3% (found in the local pharmacy) and it did improve the look of the fabric in the AFT although some marks remain. Maybe I didn't catch it early enough. I then bought a Humydry Optimo dehumidifier to keep in the van when it's not in use - every day there is some water collected in the drip tray from the dissolved crystals so it must be doing some good. Does anyone else have experience of using dehumidfiers?

There was some debate on here a while back about using cat litter (cheap Value brand is best apparently) and putting it in suitable 'breathing' bags (pillow cases maybe). Cheap, self contained and might be v. effective. In theory, can be reused by putting the bags in a hot dry place to drive off the water in the pellets. An experiment waiting to be carrried out for anyone up for it!?! I think I'd put the bags on trays in the roof in case dusty material comes out and gets on the bedding, or the pellets get too wet and start to leach material.

I'm no expert on them, but I imagine you'll always get water out of a dehumidifier, as long as there is humidity - if you get me

PS - drop it Ron - I surrender!

..and I accept your surrender magnanimously. You may keep your sword. Hey that's a first

[Badger inkslinger]

this had already been said but just to let you know, when buying hydrogen peroxide, dont tell the people behind the counter what you want it for, sometimes they can be arsey if your not using it for what it says on the bottle, as i know from being a body piercer myself it is basicaly a drying agent, we recommend it to our customers who get keloids around their piercings, (due to lack of care or quite a bad knock) it dries up the bad bacteria and dead skin and sha-ttting all sorted, worked for my bongo, as i have lots of the stuff, (not the stuff you die hair with) haha

hope that helped

[Ron Miel]

this had already been said but just to let you know, when buying hydrogen peroxide, dont tell the people behind the counter what you want it for, sometimes they can be arsey if your not using it for what it says on the bottle, as i know from being a body piercer myself it is basicaly a drying agent, we recommend it to our customers who get keloids around their piercings, (due to lack of care or quite a bad knock) it dries up the bad bacteria and dead skin and sha-ttting all sorted, worked for my bongo, as i have lots of the stuff, (not the stuff you die hair with) haha

hope that helped

If you're buying it to de-mould tent fabric (any fabric), don't hesitate to say so if you are asked. It's a well accepted use, and chemists will not have any problem with it.

[Badger inkslinger]

this had already been said but just to let you know, when buying hydrogen peroxide, dont tell the people behind the counter what you want it for, sometimes they can be arsey if your not using it for what it says on the bottle, as i know from being a body piercer myself it is basicaly a drying agent, we recommend it to our customers who get keloids around their piercings, (due to lack of care or quite a bad knock) it dries up the bad bacteria and dead skin and sha-ttting all sorted, worked for my bongo, as i have lots of the stuff, (not the stuff you die hair with) haha

hope that helped

If you're buying it to de-mould tent fabric (any fabric), don't hesitate to say so if you are asked. It's a well accepted use, and chemists will not have any problem with it.

yeah but hydrogen peroxide says on it use for mouthwash ect, iv had a few people try to buy it in our local boots but they wouldn't sell it them as its some form of rule or something? just what customers have said