Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

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BongoBongo123
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Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by BongoBongo123 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:22 pm

I have touched on this previously. As I gather oil change on Diesel Bongo is officially 6 months, which in my mind seems somewhat excessive and I have never really heard of such a short interval in my life as a motorist.(Though I never drove diesels before Bongo) Do tell me I am totally wrong and that it is a very standard diesel service interval mind you. :)

I do our oil approx every 12 months and the oil filter every 2 changes as I only do 4,000 - 5,000 miles per year.

I suspect there are a quite a few low mileage people on here who do something similar given what I have read.

However I am starting to think that 12 months even with a high end oil and low miles (Magnatec semi synth) might not be ideal, especially with a oil filter change every 2 years. I am going to revise this filter change to every 1 year as well, even though it will have only done 4-5K miles and could do 10K. I have read that newer oils are better and maintain their protecting qualities for longer. I do wonder about the effects of soot build up in the oil though.

My concern is that on an old diesel that there must be a lot of soot build up in said oil (probably turning almost into a heavily laden slurry of black paste). It comes out extremely thick and pure black, normal I know for even petrol after 1 year but I think it comes out so unbelieveably loaded with soot I have concerns. I don't suppose the qualities of the oil have diminished over 1 year at least in the detergents and lubricity (over 4-5K miles) but do wonder what a detrimental effect the soot particles might have, and if these could make oil deteriorate quicker.

Beginners question : Is an engine oil filter mean to to filter soot or mainly just engine filings (bits of swaff/metal particles from wear) ?

This is a bit heavy going but has some good info (I think it eludes to some soot improving lubricity initially in the highlights, but goes on to say it is damaging):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4813002810

Now the question is..should a low mileage driver use cheaper oils (Say 2 x 4L load of Halfords when on offer) and chage oil twice a year or use
something like 2 x 4L Magnatec once a year.

In an ideal world we would all change oil and filter twice a year, but given cost and time many do not. I suppose you can do an oil change with filter for between £34 and £50.00 (8L oil total required and a filter) if you buy when offers are on and depending on oil brand. Plus the time it takes. I do my own oil but it is a bit hassle-y with 2 cars to service so doing Bongo twice is not really something I am super keen on. (You have to do the job and then get rid of the oil down the refuse dump)

But if it means there would be a big difference in engine wear then I would obviously. My question is how much does this matter and can we do anything better than guess ? I have no specifically noticed a problem. Could particle load in a diesel reduce engine power ? How would particle loading in the oil manifest as an actual problem ?

In any event I am going to up the oil filter change to every time I do the oil.
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by BongoBongo123 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 pm

This is an additive companies website so it might be a bit biased but it is quite interesting:

https://commercial.lubrizoladditives360 ... ects-wear/

"Such soot accumulations in the engine oil have been observed in the 2% to 10% range"

10pct soot... crumbs. :shock:
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by BongoBongo123 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:46 pm

Starting to think every 5,000 miles on a Bongo does not cut it:

https://www.quora.com/How-often-should- ... sel-engine

But I am not sure ultimately. It does not matter if you use bargain basement oil or top notch if it is loaded with soot.
they will both load up the same I presume.
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by Bob » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:51 pm

I can't comment about soot build up, and this is only my opinion as others will say modern oils are much better than the old days... I've no argument with that view.

Personaly I think the manufacturer sets a service schedule for a reason, and this recommends work at a given mileage or time, whichever is first, not last.

Again, only my view, but the gamble is save a few quid on an oil change against engine damage. Likely not a catastrophic fail, but increased daily wear.

To make the job easier I use a Pela pump, and others will say it doesn't get all the sludge out. I'd rather use the Pela and change the oil than not do it because it's a pig to get under the vehicle, and I can say with the dipstick at max I get out what the manual says is capacity.

Also true on Mother's little Agila.

I did say to Sue that this tiddler is like working on a 6" to 1' model. :lol:
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by BongoBongo123 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:55 pm

I am starting to think for low miles every 9 months cycle with good oil is a compromise.

At the lowest price twice a year is not too bad. But if you catch the offers wrong and it then costs you £120.00 a year for 2 oil changes. #-o

I don't use a pump or owt.. I just drain it into a bowl and it is the easiest vehicle I have ever done
an oil change on. Less inviting mid winter ! (and guess what 9 months is right about " now 'o' clock" for our service) :lol:
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by mikeonb4c » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:44 pm

Great post from Bob (aka Ben). Can't beat the Pela for cleanliness and convenience and it gets all the oil out (sludge won't budge regardless i suspect plus if you have sludge you might anyway have an issue).
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by BongoBongo123 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:02 pm

The Pela 6000 looks as a nice luxury and would almost do a Diesel Bongo. I will consider it for the future
Currently I am only spending on necessities, cut backs on outgoings so as it is not a necessity
and will have to wait for now.

Given you have to have the oil filter off anyway (which will almost certainly drip) it is not going to save a huge amount
of hassle over a bowl.
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by samuel » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:46 pm

I've been reading this article with great interest as I believe I have first hand experience of a failed engine due to an excessive build up of soot in the lubricating oil. Not on a Bongo but my wife Jill's Citroen Berlingo Multispace 1600 HDI 2010 model. Prior to it's big ends going the engine had covered only 58,000 miles had been regularly serviced having had an oil (recommended by Citroen) and filter change only 6500 miles ago. It would appear that the oil had suffered excess soot which led to it's inability to lubricate the engine as it should. Apparently the oil pick up can also get partially blocked by this soot and should therefore be cleaned as part of the service. Can you imagine dropping the sump every oil change to clean the pick-up! :(

I replaced the engine with a lower mileage one that I bought on eBay. Happily it is sound and running happily. However having researched a bit about this engine on the interweb my trust in the modern diesel has been slightly dented. I now believe if a modern diesel (with all the emissions paraphernalia fitted) isn't worked properly i.e. run at normal engine temperature for reasonable periods of time then it could suffer the same failure as the Berlingo. Jill only does short trips which isn't ideal for a turbo engine as really the engine doesn't get up to temperature in order to get the combustion acting efficiently and not too good for the turbo either. The intention now is to take the Berlingo out on decent runs to make sure (hopefully) this issue doesn't occur again.

She previously had a naturally aspirated petrol Nissan Micra. I would check the oil regularly and couldn't believe that the oil was always clean and didn't start to go black for thousands of miles. That car was very reliable. I can honestly say that the next car she has will be a naturally aspirated petrol version. Only because it would suit the short stop/start journey scenario better.

Back to the Bongo. I've owned the same one for nearly 14 years, a 2.5TD 4x4, changed the oil and filter every 6000miles and the engine is as tight as a nut. The EGR was blocked off shortly after I bought it in 2004. There you have it. I hope this helps that since the Bongo engine is pretty basic. Regular servicing as i have described is all she needs.
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by mikeonb4c » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:51 pm

BongoBongo123 wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:02 pm The Pela 6000 looks as a nice luxury and would almost do a Diesel Bongo. I will consider it for the future
Currently I am only spending on necessities, cut backs on outgoings so as it is not a necessity
and will have to wait for now.

Given you have to have the oil filter off anyway (which will almost certainly drip) it is not going to save a huge amount
of hassle over a bowl.
Well you only change filter every other oil change so half the changes are completely painless. And with a washing up bowl sat on the undertray to catch it, the filter doesn't create a major problem, and you still don't have to get underneath and place a bowl to catch all the hot oil that comes gushing out. Suits me sir 8)
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by teenmal » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:33 pm

BB123,I seem to remember you having this conversation a while back..


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67865&p=641257&hili ... ol#p641257


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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by Northern Bongolow » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:25 am

to blank off you egr or not, new mot regs etc. read this it will also explain the effects on the coolant system.

egr engines should run on egr engine oil.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea ... el-engines
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by BongoBongo123 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:20 am

Yes Teenmal I had brought it up before and I referenced it in the first post. 6,000 miles, well I do a bit less than that typically per annum,
about 4K-ish.

I just wondered about soot specifically in diesels. I felt a very slight power loss this summer overall. (could have just been extra weight ro some other
variable, maybe I am just getting lighter and lighter on the foot naturally, or maybe I had different shoes on) I am quite sensitive to sounds, vibration and chassis sensations in the Bongo. So notice very minor changes in performance. I started to wonder if the oil might be getting loaded up.. but to be honest at the time I noticed the ever so slight power loss it had only done 2,000 miles so I can probably rule out oil particulant loading. :lol: (Maybe we are just putting on weight ! And lugging more stuff with us.)

With a petrol you don't (and has been mentioned) get anywhere near as much carbon deposits in the oil so I suspect
that is may well last longer. I put fully synth Magnatec in my petrol car and leave that for 2 years without issue. Also does about 3-4K a year.

It is just cause I have relatively less experience with a Diesel and if it was necessary to change every 5,000 miles. I have even seen
3K miles or 3 months for some diesels. I started to wonder if the soot is instrumental in accelerated oil lubricity/protection breakdown. Cause if it is
I might well put Halfords on offer stuff in there and do it twice a year and not spend more cash on more expensive oil.

I kind of trust the Magnatec USP.. i.e. oil is supposed to glue a film through magnetism to the bores/valves etc. For better start up protection, especially in winter that must reduce wear.

These are generally mostly M-Way miles as well and at 55/60 not powering it along at 77mph or owt. I imagine if it was a stop/start work van going through town every day for 7 hours then 3K oil changes might actually be very sensible in a diesel. I suspect you have to just try and gauge engine duty.

Yes I see your point Mike but I am now thinking of changing the filter every time I do the oil as a bonus. That in itself is leaving
some soot from the last oil, captured in the filter 400ml or so I guess. I am going to err on the side of caution and do it a little more regularly, every 9 months. It certainly won't cause harm. Next mild spell I will do a change then it's been 9 months.

I always do plugs a bit before they are due, you save what you lose on the plugs in petrol I reckon compared to leaving old plugs ina bit longer than you should. Always feels smoother after a plug change I find. Pela will have to wait as a non essential spend.
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by JoeC » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:56 pm

To help with the black sludge when doing an engine oil change ... try using an engine oil flush. However, these can come with their own issues as you may well disturb / remove some build up of carbon etc. that have been filling small leaks etc. for years. Personally, I use a flush every now and then but not too often.
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by BongoBongo123 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:03 pm

Never really seen sludge in any oil removed from my vehicles but after 1 year at less than 5K miles the diesel Bongo oil it seems jet black. I did my petrol car engine oil today and even after 2 years it was still dark brown (8K miles approx over 2 years).

In any event more regular changes will happen from now on for the Bongo just to be sure. I guess I just have an interest in it, always feels nice servicing your cars. you know what went in them and how. I will do the Bongo at next mild/sunny spell. (9 months < 5K miles )

Bongo is a dream to do oil+ filter compared with my car. The sump nut and oil filter is at the rear of the sump on car making it
a very fiddly job, in part why I do the car every 2 years with fully synthetic oil.
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Re: Effect of soot build up in oil ? (Diesel)

Post by JoeC » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:12 pm

Petrol engine oil should be brown and diesel black (due to carbon within it).
What either should not be is sludgy and thick.