Losing Water, Probably Internally (2.5l Diesel Auto 2wd)

[Noggin]

Hi All, I know I don't frequent this forum often but I've been a member and proud Bongo owner for a couple of years now and I could do with some advise.

I bought my Bongo in Aug 2008 and did about 35,000 trouble free miles prior to the second quarter of this year bringing the vehicles total milage up to just over 100k. In March/April I heard a curious sound which at first I thought sounded like a flapping belt but I quickly discovered that the coolant in my header tank was actually boiling. Oddly the temperature gauge in the vehicle was reading as normal throughout (so about half way up & taking about 5-10 minutes from starting to get there.)

I realised that the coolant was low so topped it up and then continued to monitor it over time but did notice that the engine would run a bit 3 cylindery on startup. At first it only lost a bit of coolant but this gradually worsened so in May I took it into my local garage (good honest guys who are part of the village community here so I consider them trustworthy.) They looked without success for any signs of an external leak so advised me to use some sort of Radweld type thing until we could decided the best course of action. This seemed to work very temporarily but soon the problem cropped up again

I took advise from the people I bought the van from (Littlemovers) as I understand they have a good reputation and they said I should absolutely not use Radweld or anything like it as that would be likely to cause coolant problems in a bongo more than it would solve them. So following this I thought carefully about the vehicle and deciding I wanted to keep it into the future instructed my local garage to replace the headgasket and radiator. The Cylinder head was sent away, pressure tested and skimmed before the remaining headgasket work and rebuild was done. An expensive job but at least I could drive away confidently....

For the most part the problem appeared to be sorted, I did still notice a bit of water loss but so little I wondered if that was just normal, however just over a month ago I was driving along and suddenly I heard the tell-tail boiling sound again (temperature gauge still normal.) I quickly contacted the garage and they took it in again to look at it. Now after about 2 weeks of fairly extensive testing they tell me that leaving the vehicle idling for 8 hours they couldn't get it to loose water, but when road tested it began to loose a lot (at least 1 litre every 100 miles.) and again there are no signs of an external leak.

The garage are reluctant to take the engine apart again because they say if there's nothing wrong with the gasket and the head passes a pressure test I'm likely to be looking a whole new engine!

It all a bit heart breaking really because other than this my Bongo is in great working order it's really clean, rust free, all the electrics work perfectly, the interior is still as good as new and it's been serviced regularly.

So... firstly, are myself and my garage missing something here that is perhaps peculiar to Bongos? Has anyone else had a similar issue to this? and if so were you able to fix it without extremely costly repairs.
Secondly, What is the general consensus on the use of products like k-seal in a Bongo.
Thirdly, New Engine?!?!!?!?! What would I be looking at here as a worst case scenario? Can you even buy a 'new' bongo engine?

HELP!!

[scanner]

Oddly the temperature gauge in the vehicle was reading as normal throughout (so about half way up & taking about 5-10 minutes from starting to get there.)

(temperature gauge still normal.)

Firstly sorry, but unless the temp gauge has been modified with a Mason Alarm or the like, you have just learned the first hard lesson of Bongo ownership - "temperature gauge talk with forked tongue" or rather it doesn't say a word until it is way too late. It is so heavily damped that it doesn't move off "normal" until the engine is way too hot.

So... firstly, are myself and my garage missing something here that is perhaps peculiar to Bongos? Has anyone else had a similar issue to this? and if so were you able to fix it without extremely costly repairs.

How Bongo friendly are the garage? Do they have much experience of them?
Do they know ANYTHING about them?
How did they bleed the system when they replaced the head gasket etc.? There is a lot peculiar about Bongos and a garage that insists on believing there isn't ought to be given a wide berth.

Secondly, What is the general consensus on the use of products like k-seal in a Bongo.

Some folk on here claim to have used it with some success - but my question would be "How clear or gunged up is your cooling system? I certainly wouldn't want to use it if I had any thought that the system might be anything other than completely clear and that I would guess is Little Movers reason for being wary.

[maxheadroom]

check for a crack between the inlet and exhuast valve in cylinder two, this is very similar to mine and others.
It would run all day on the drive but when under load it would boil.
Got my head froom club shop (it comes with everything you need ) and fitted it in a weekend.

http://www.igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/ ... head+gloom

[crazy uncle gray g]

I assume if you trust these fellas the head did get checked independently
and that you saw the report from the the head specialist saying everything was OK and what work had been done?
Also did your garage check that the block itself was flat and true
and that no damage had occurred to that during its over heating episode,
before refitting the head and new gasket?

[Dozing Passenger]

"The Cylinder head was sent away, pressure tested and skimmed before the remaining headgasket work and rebuild was done. An expensive job but at least I could drive away confidently..."

Did they do that in that order? I had a similiar problem with a bongo head it was skimmed but then it was found to be porous; new head required, a new gasket won't fix it

[Diplomat]

Apologies in advance if this reply is a bit of a brainstorm.

The only time I've had those sort of symptoms was years ago with a Hillman Imp. I convinced myself that it was boiling but in fact the engine and the cooling system were enjoying intercourse. Gases were getting into the water and water was getting into the oil. The eventual cure (not sure for how long, as I traded it in for a brand new Datsun Cherry "Estate") was coating both sides of the head gasket with black Bostik.

As Scanner says, don't believe the temperature guage unless it has been modified. Also, be mindful of where the temperature is being measured. I have a laboratory grade glass thermometer which I would dip into the header tank if I were having similar symptoms. That would tell me the difference between boilng and blowing.

Is any water being lost out of the cap on the rad or the cap on the header tank?

Mine had a leak along the top seam of the radiator. This is easy to see. Just suppose a similar thing happens along the bottom seam... would it be noticed easily?

Could this be something as simple as the system having been looked at by someone unaware of the bleeding procedure, leaving you the legacy of an air lock?


8 hours of idling (imagine it) is not going to produce the same conditions as making it do some work.

I have nightmares about living in an area far away from the real and trusted Bongo experts. Perhaps you are also unlucky in this respect? Location certainly seems to influence the fortunes of those who appear on here. I didn't see where you are. Bad luck if you are in the home counties or the south east! Any connection between this pararaph and the two preceding ones is purely coincidental.




You wrote

all a bit heart breaking really because other than this my Bongo is in great working order it's really clean, rust free, all the electrics work perfectly, the interior is still as good as new and it's been serviced regularly.

What doesn't ease the heartbreak is the knowledge that Mazda dropped production of one of the most versatile and desirable vehicles ever designed and haven't even replaced it with anything vaguely similar. However, they continue to make cars that you can't do anything worthwhile in the back of. I was led to believe that the passion wagon market was big in Japan as homes were too crowded for young couples to find privacy, hence the blinds.

This means that, as well as newer Bongos, spares will eventually become difficult to source.

Wake up Mazda! Don't let us down. I don't want to buy Eurocrap for lack of grey imports.

Frank

[Noggin]

Thanks everyone, that's some very useful info.

I do have confidence in the local garage here, they've been very thorough and have referred to the bongo fury fact sheets for each job they have done, inc. the bleeding of the coolant system. They look after a lot of vehicles in the community here and wouldn't be in business long if they made a habit of bodging things.

I think my plan now is to get the cylinder head tested again and just hope it's that and not something that can't be replaced easily.

I will let you all know how it goes.

[waycar8]

Hmnn.... ok, my thoughts.....

tape a small bottle or fix it somehow to the overflow in the expansion bottle , if you have a hard to find leak in your system, once your bongo is up to temp it may suck in air on small journeys, then after driving around, the same keeps happening, the air builds up and forces coolant out of the expansion cap a bit at a time, then once theres loads of air in your system it will boil like the symtoms you describe.

If you cant find the leak then at least you will know if its doing as I described as you will notice coolant in the bottle thats under the overflow pipe on the expansion tank.


Also is your rad a mazda one or an after market one?, if it has a pipe on the neck of the rad where the rad cap goes then this could be your problem, I and others have had this problem with the aftermarket rads that are advertised on ebay ect, you will have to blank it off, also the rad cap must be 1.1 bar, the after market ones come with 0.9 which lift when the bongo is up to load. (others who have the after market rad say it doesnt need blanking off but ive seen loads of bongos that have had problems with then pipe in the neck leaking.)

[mikexgough]

What doesn't ease the heartbreak is the knowledge that Mazda dropped production of one of the most versatile and desirable vehicles ever designed and haven't even replaced it with anything vaguely similar. However, they continue to make cars that you can't do anything worthwhile in the back of. I was led to believe that the passion wagon market was big in Japan as homes were too crowded for young couples to find privacy, hence the blinds.

This means that, as well as newer Bongos, spares will eventually become difficult to source.

Wake up Mazda! Don't let us down. I don't want to buy Eurocrap for lack of grey imports.

Frank

But there is still the Biante from Mazda as well as the ordinary Bongo Brawny, the NV200 Nissan along with the Mean looking HiAce and Delica L400.... all will not be lost if and when the Bongo Friendee is "out of favour" due to spares supply.....as all can be slept in and if they have not had blinds....the fitted blinds are all available to buy

[jaylee]

Just throwing my idea.. (Though i'm by no means an expert!) Water pump?? Mine was found to be noticeably leaking when cold.. Sorted now!

[mister munkey]

I'll chuck one in too.

Are a lot of your hoses held with Jubilee Clips? they tend to lose their grip over time causing tiny weeps.

Mine are & most need a quqrter turn tweek every few months to keep the weeps at bay. Mine used to lose about a pint a week but since an initial a once over its pretty much cured it.

[Diplomat]

But there is still the Biante from Mazda

Interesting, Mike. Thanks for the info, I'd never heard of it. That must be their concept of a Bongo replacement.

What a shame, it looks absolutely awful.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... nte_01.JPG


"Lost the plot" would be my comment. Poor Mr Inamoto, all that design effort now a memory.

The Biante looks like an over stylised version of a more recent Nissan Serena (Serena C24), which doesn't get sold in Europe. The latter look like a budget version of the Biante. All these wagons have a common characteristic: Far too much front crumple zone/engine compartment at the expense of interior space behind the front seats.

If they weren't quite so big in all dimensions I'd settle for a Transit Tourneo, surprised we don't see many as campers. I want usefulness not silly looks, Mazda designers please note.


Still following the cooland loss thread with interest, apologies for the tangent.


Frank

[Noggin]

Thank you all. I'm afraid to say on a run at the weekend I had to resort to the bottle of k-seal the garage gave me & I'm pleased to report it seems to be working.

I'm sure it isn't hoses, the startup issues kinda knock that out of the equation, although fixing the leak still hasn't solved the slight miss-firing on startup I'm guessing this is probably just residue in one of the cylinders. No idea if this will fix itself in time, is there anything you can do to clean cylinders and heads?

I Might look at trading in my bongo in for a newer/lower milage one, can't imagine living without one now.

[Noggin]

P.S. I agree the Biante look horrible.