Bongo Fury

mikeonb4c wrote:

francophile1947 wrote:

mikeonb4c wrote: (Good) technical articles start with a summary THEN go on to write the full report. Think about it. Everybody from BMJ, 'New Scientist' to 'Which' and just about anyone professional in between that writes reports uses 'at a glance' techiniques like this. Basic stuff.

But, as Haydn says, he didn't write the article and doesn't feel qualified enough to edit it - I think you're talking yourself into a job Mike

Happy to share what I have with the usual disclaimers......

Hmmmm.!!!!
I would hazard a guess that 90% of cylinder head/gasket failures happen very soon after a overheating event.
I would also hazard a guess that 90% of overheating events are caused by coolant loss from the system (by whatever means)
That tells me there is a direct link between "most" head/gasket failures and the cooling system.

So...what coolant to use if a top up is necessary? Is there a recommended type - I'm not sure I followed everything in this thread.

I'm not sure what was put in by the garage when my water pump was changed over the summer.

Lewy wrote:So...what coolant to use if a top up is necessary? Is there a recommended type - I'm not sure I followed everything in this thread.

Happy to share what I have with the usual disclaimers......???????

mikexgough wrote: I have seen a neigbour using that Yellow "Prestone" brand (pre mixed) as a top up for his car at the weekend..... It claims to be universal and mix with all coolants.... - lets just say.....he has not experienced any issues yet with the 300 ml he added and the yellow coolant mixed and changed to the Green he had in.....instant mixed, I had expected it to have "laid" on top until the system ran but it just mixed straight away... the future?....or at least perhaps a "get out of jail card"?

I used the Prestone 5 year life 'yellow' coolant, 4 years no problems.. I must have another read of the container to see which additives it uses..

Coolant Chemistry
(a discussion from the Triumph Car list)
....The major component of coolant is water which is a great heat transfer fluid.
....The next major component is the base of the concentrated coolant, as purchased at the store.
....There are two major base chemicals that commonly are used. Ethylene glycol (EG, generally green) is the most
common base. Less common is propylene glycol (PG, generally orange or reddish), which has been used for years in
Switzerland owing to poison laws and is a recent entry in the U.S. market.
....One function of the coolant is to lower the freezing point of the mixture in the system. Another function of the coolant is
to raise the viscosity (thickness) of the coolant mixture. Higher viscosity mixtures will reduce cavitation at the water pump.
PG (orange stuff) and EG (green stuff) will both raise the coolant viscosity, methanol will not.
....A variety of different chemicals are added to coolants to inhibit corrosion. Called inhibitors, the function of these
additives may be to form a stable, protective film on the metal surface or to alter the solution properties of the coolant.
Really, the precise mechanism of protection of some additives is not known by anyone who is willing to publish their
results.
....Common corrosion inhibitors include: sodium phosphate, sodium nitrate, sodium tolytriazole, sodium molybdate,
sodium borate, sodium benzoate and sodium silicate. These are all sodium salts. Actually, only the right hand group of
these salts is chemically the inhibitor, i.e., benzoate or silicate. These salts dissociates in water, in other words, they
separate into sodium, with a positive charge, and the inhibitor, with a negative charge. The sodium salts are used
because of the high solubility (readily splits off and stays in solution) of sodium. There would never be sodium deposits
in your engine.
....Different inhibitors protect different metals.
....Aluminum heat-transfer corrosion is best inhibited by silicate and most poorly by phosphate and borate.
....Copper is best inhibited by molybdate and most poorly by benzoate; high-lead solder best by molybdate and
phosphate and most poorly by nitrate, silicate and benzoate; low-lead solder best by tolytriazole and molybdate and
most poorly by nitrate and silicate;
....Mild steel best by molybdate, phosphate and nitrite and most poorly by tolytriazole and benzoate;
....Gray cast iron best by nitrate and most poorly by benzoate, tolyriazole, and borate; and cast aluminum best by silicate
and most poorly by phosphate and molybdate.
....Phosphate is the most ubiquitous and most controversial inhibitor. It is a well known inhibitor of ferrous metal
corrosion, hence trisodium phosphate is used to clean off sheet metal. American car manufacturers have specified
phosphate in coolants because it is highly effective at preventing cavitation. Europeans specify non-phosphate coolants
because phosphates have a propensity to precipitate in hard water. Also, phosphates have a negative effect on the
corrosion rate of aluminum. This beneficial effects peak at concentrations of about 3 gm/liter and decreases at both lower
and higher concentrations. Typical concentrations in coolants range from 0 to 8 g/l.
....Nitrate is included in virtually all coolant formulations because of its efficacy in preventing aluminum radiator pitting,
with presumably no negative side effects for other metals. A typical concentration is 2 g/l.
....Tolytriazole is similarly included in virtually all formulations owing to its effectiveness in preventing cupreous metal
corrosion. A typical concentration is 1 g/l.
....Molybdate is a broadly beneficial additive. It prevents corrosion in many metals and acts synergistically with
phosphates and silicates to prevent corrosion in others. Molybdate also seems to prevent cavitation damage; it is usually
selected to perform this function in non-phosphate coolants. Typical molybdate concentrations are 2 to 3 g/l.
....Borate is the most commonly used buffer for coolant systems. Off the shelf, American coolants tend to have a pH of 10
or higher (this is an alkaline pH), while European coolants tend to have a pH of 7 to 8.5 (which is near neutral to very
slightly alkaline). In service, the pH of American coolants often drops to 8. Unfortunately, borate tends to have a direct
and negative effect on aluminum corrosion. In spite of this, the importance of keeping coolants well buffered is great
enough to keep borate in coolant formulations. A typical concentration is 4 g/l.
....Benzoate (and Nitrite, which is not mentioned here) are part of the British Standards Institute's [BSI] Corrosion
Inhibited Ethanediol Anti-freeze formulation. Benzoate is more common in European coolants than American coolants
and is described as a ferrous metals corrosion inhibitor.
....Finally there are silicates, which appear to be ultra necessary in the protection for aluminum. The problem is that
silicates are not indefinitely stable in solution. While other additives can be used to stabilize silicates somewhat. The
lifespan of coolants could be considered by the presence of an adequate silicate concentration. 2 g/l is an effective
concentration of silicate.
....Bringing all of these inhibitors together, a combination of benzoate, molybdate, borate, nitrate, tolytriazole and silicate
is a good additive package that doesn't use phosphates. The non-silicate part of the package is fairly effective in
preventing aluminum corrosion, and makes a good back-up system in for an aluminum block engine, should the silicates
become depleted.
....Other additives appear in coolants as well. These agents are typically used to stabilize the inhibitors or the metal salts
which are corrosion by-products. This type of additive is called a sequestrants. Another required additive is the colorant.


The most useful advice:
Some Questions and Answers
(a discussion from the Triumph Car list)
How long does coolant last?
....You can definitely trust your coolant, phosphate containing or not, for about one year of average use. Coolant has a
definite lifespan even in storage. It would be wise to replace the coolant in an aluminum engine at least every 2 years.
How can coolant go bad?
....The primary failure of coolant is depletion of some inhibitor. For an aluminum block engine this is the silicate. Another
failure is saturation with some metal salt, such as aluminum phosphate, which then precipitates at some inconvenient
location in the engine.
Should I use tap water or distilled water?
....Distilled water is recommended. Exceptionally soft water would be acceptable. Basically, the engine metals are
going to corrode to some extent no matter what water you use, and hard water will encourage the resulting metal salts to
precipitate.
How often should I change coolant?
....Flush and refill annually with 50% coolant - water mixture. If you do this you may never experience any cooling system
corrosion problems.
What coolant should I use?
....If you are willing to religiously flush and change your coolant annually, any aluminum compatible coolant will do.
"Aluminum compatible" are usually the code words for "contains silicates". As long as a decent silicate concentration is
maintained, the presence of phosphate is unimportant. Aluminum corrosion was extemely low in the presence of
phosphate, as long as the silicates were not depleted. Aluminum corrosion rapidly accelerates once the silicate
concentration drops. If you are not up to annual changes, a phosphate-free, aluminum compatible coolant may be the
best choice.

Timnz wrote:Coolant Chemistry
(a discussion from the Triumph Car list)
....The major component of coolant is water which is a great heat transfer fluid.
....The next major component is the base of the concentrated coolant, as purchased at the store.
....There are two major base chemicals that commonly are used. Ethylene glycol (EG, generally green) is the most
common base. Less common is propylene glycol (PG, generally orange or reddish), which has been used for years in
Switzerland owing to poison laws and is a recent entry in the U.S. market.
....One function of the coolant is to lower the freezing point of the mixture in the system. Another function of the coolant is
to raise the viscosity (thickness) of the coolant mixture. Higher viscosity mixtures will reduce cavitation at the water pump.
PG (orange stuff) and EG (green stuff) will both raise the coolant viscosity, methanol will not.
....A variety of different chemicals are added to coolants to inhibit corrosion. Called inhibitors, the function of these
additives may be to form a stable, protective film on the metal surface or to alter the solution properties of the coolant.
Really, the precise mechanism of protection of some additives is not known by anyone who is willing to publish their
results.
....Common corrosion inhibitors include: sodium phosphate, sodium nitrate, sodium tolytriazole, sodium molybdate,
sodium borate, sodium benzoate and sodium silicate. These are all sodium salts. Actually, only the right hand group of
these salts is chemically the inhibitor, i.e., benzoate or silicate. These salts dissociates in water, in other words, they
separate into sodium, with a positive charge, and the inhibitor, with a negative charge. The sodium salts are used
because of the high solubility (readily splits off and stays in solution) of sodium. There would never be sodium deposits
in your engine.
....Different inhibitors protect different metals.
....Aluminum heat-transfer corrosion is best inhibited by silicate and most poorly by phosphate and borate.
....Copper is best inhibited by molybdate and most poorly by benzoate; high-lead solder best by molybdate and
phosphate and most poorly by nitrate, silicate and benzoate; low-lead solder best by tolytriazole and molybdate and
most poorly by nitrate and silicate;
....Mild steel best by molybdate, phosphate and nitrite and most poorly by tolytriazole and benzoate;
....Gray cast iron best by nitrate and most poorly by benzoate, tolyriazole, and borate; and cast aluminum best by silicate
and most poorly by phosphate and molybdate.
....Phosphate is the most ubiquitous and most controversial inhibitor. It is a well known inhibitor of ferrous metal
corrosion, hence trisodium phosphate is used to clean off sheet metal. American car manufacturers have specified
phosphate in coolants because it is highly effective at preventing cavitation. Europeans specify non-phosphate coolants
because phosphates have a propensity to precipitate in hard water. Also, phosphates have a negative effect on the
corrosion rate of aluminum. This beneficial effects peak at concentrations of about 3 gm/liter and decreases at both lower
and higher concentrations. Typical concentrations in coolants range from 0 to 8 g/l.
....Nitrate is included in virtually all coolant formulations because of its efficacy in preventing aluminum radiator pitting,
with presumably no negative side effects for other metals. A typical concentration is 2 g/l.
....Tolytriazole is similarly included in virtually all formulations owing to its effectiveness in preventing cupreous metal
corrosion. A typical concentration is 1 g/l.
....Molybdate is a broadly beneficial additive. It prevents corrosion in many metals and acts synergistically with
phosphates and silicates to prevent corrosion in others. Molybdate also seems to prevent cavitation damage; it is usually
selected to perform this function in non-phosphate coolants. Typical molybdate concentrations are 2 to 3 g/l.
....Borate is the most commonly used buffer for coolant systems. Off the shelf, American coolants tend to have a pH of 10
or higher (this is an alkaline pH), while European coolants tend to have a pH of 7 to 8.5 (which is near neutral to very
slightly alkaline). In service, the pH of American coolants often drops to 8. Unfortunately, borate tends to have a direct
and negative effect on aluminum corrosion. In spite of this, the importance of keeping coolants well buffered is great
enough to keep borate in coolant formulations. A typical concentration is 4 g/l.
....Benzoate (and Nitrite, which is not mentioned here) are part of the British Standards Institute's [BSI] Corrosion
Inhibited Ethanediol Anti-freeze formulation. Benzoate is more common in European coolants than American coolants
and is described as a ferrous metals corrosion inhibitor.
....Finally there are silicates, which appear to be ultra necessary in the protection for aluminum. The problem is that
silicates are not indefinitely stable in solution. While other additives can be used to stabilize silicates somewhat. The
lifespan of coolants could be considered by the presence of an adequate silicate concentration. 2 g/l is an effective
concentration of silicate.
....Bringing all of these inhibitors together, a combination of benzoate, molybdate, borate, nitrate, tolytriazole and silicate
is a good additive package that doesn't use phosphates. The non-silicate part of the package is fairly effective in
preventing aluminum corrosion, and makes a good back-up system in for an aluminum block engine, should the silicates
become depleted.
....Other additives appear in coolants as well. These agents are typically used to stabilize the inhibitors or the metal salts
which are corrosion by-products. This type of additive is called a sequestrants. Another required additive is the colorant.


The most useful advice:
Some Questions and Answers
(a discussion from the Triumph Car list)
How long does coolant last?
....You can definitely trust your coolant, phosphate containing or not, for about one year of average use. Coolant has a
definite lifespan even in storage. It would be wise to replace the coolant in an aluminum engine at least every 2 years.
How can coolant go bad?
....The primary failure of coolant is depletion of some inhibitor. For an aluminum block engine this is the silicate. Another
failure is saturation with some metal salt, such as aluminum phosphate, which then precipitates at some inconvenient
location in the engine.
Should I use tap water or distilled water?
....Distilled water is recommended. Exceptionally soft water would be acceptable. Basically, the engine metals are
going to corrode to some extent no matter what water you use, and hard water will encourage the resulting metal salts to
precipitate.
How often should I change coolant?
....Flush and refill annually with 50% coolant - water mixture. If you do this you may never experience any cooling system
corrosion problems.
What coolant should I use?
....If you are willing to religiously flush and change your coolant annually, any aluminum compatible coolant will do.
"Aluminum compatible" are usually the code words for "contains silicates". As long as a decent silicate concentration is
maintained, the presence of phosphate is unimportant. Aluminum corrosion was extemely low in the presence of
phosphate, as long as the silicates were not depleted. Aluminum corrosion rapidly accelerates once the silicate
concentration drops. If you are not up to annual changes, a phosphate-free, aluminum compatible coolant may be the
best choice.

Nice post........BUT remember...... Bongo's were made and used in Japan......with Silicate and Borate Free coolants.....so the nearest match to factory is the best solution ......... a G12+ coolant.... is the closest to factory .....