Bongo Fury

Hi
I have a technical query regarding operating temperatures of diesel fuel
It seems that opinions are divided on the effectiveness of additives for the prevention of diesel waxing. I have read that despite putting additives into diesel, you can't change the cloud point of diesel fuel, and it will always remain at around minus 9 - 10 Celcius.
From experience, I know when the block temperature reads minus 10 /11, the engine won't fire, and you have to wait for the diesel to "Thaw" , and it will only fire when the temperature rises to around minus 8
According to Canadian websites, where they obviously know a thing or two, it is stated that additives will allow diesel to flow at greatly reduced temperatures...so, how can I find the "Trusted Word", if petrol companies say on one hand that their Arctic diesel will permit flowing to low temperatures, whereas other suppliers say that you can't change the cloud point of diesel....
Does anyone have another source of information that's accurate...PLUS...is there any information as to whether you can add additives to diesel already being quoted as winter diesel
Unfortunately, here, you will always get the answer "Yes" when asked if something is suitable for the job in hand, if it means a sale!...you just have to use a bit of Common!, so I need to try to get reliable Info. on diesel, as we hope to buy a large autostart Genny for emergency use, and many of them run on diesel as well
Thanks in advance
Cheers
Helen

helen, what you must do is get the information locally. meaning fuel is made/blended for the areas it is to sold and used. we in britain have summer and winter diesel,and im sure you have the same,but as your temps are generally different to ours you may need different info.
think you may be on the right track with looking at countries on similar latitudes/temps.

Hi Helen, I found this stuff: http://www.kamco.co.uk/diesel.htm

It seems as if it acts as a nucleus so that the diesel clouds at the same temperature, or higher, but the 'lumps' of wax are smaller, so don't get in the way.

We had a few days at -15 and one at -20, and my non Bongo diesel needed a lot of lot of cranking to get going, when it warmed up to -10 it went back to normal fast starting.

I do wonder about the biodiesel part of fuel, I suspect there are a lot of unknown/untried contaminants in much of it, and suspect the effects are not properly understood.

Hi
Thanks for the replies.
I remember , years ago, seeing trucks stopped , and realise it was diesel problems, according to what I remember my father saying...now, over the years since the 50s/ 60s, we are having warmer weather...It is possible that this has turned, and the UK will see a future of cold winters, and warm summers again, so this may affect members in Scotland.
Ady...
Information is very hard to come by here...they either don't know, and if they did, they are unlikely to disseminate it. There is very little in-depth technology here, and although you may read otherwise, it is all propaganda...it's a simple country!...so, I look for info. elsewhere
Munroman...
I am definitely going to follow that up, and get some sent here to try...normally, we only have a few days below minus 20, and temperatures are usually around a tropical minus 8 - 10 . When you couldn't start your diesel car, if it's only a day of low temperatures , then it may just may start in a lumpy fashion at minus 10, as this is the cloud point , variously quoted between minus 9 to minus 11...I would expect this variation is due to the water content as well, because diesel always has a small amount of water in it, but when it drops another degree from where you have the lumpiness, it feels like the engine has siezed...it will hardly turn.
Once the diesel has set like this, then you seem to have to get it to minus 8 , before the waxing disappears. The big problem in running in temperatures close to cloud point, is that the fuel lines become chilled in forward motion, due to wind chill. We have a village around 10 Km from us, and on the way, there is a dip where there is often a fog and chill air...2 yers back, we were driving through this patch, and the Bong was chugging, refusing to change gear, and sounding sick ...a few Km. past it , and all was sweet again...so...we stick to the village in temperatures around minus 10
TGP
You have probably hit the nail on the head, Mel, with thoughts of adulterated fuel...the folk here are notorious for fiddling and thieving, and it's best not to buy beer with crown corked bottles....everyone has a crown corker! If I find any packet/ bottle/ tube without a seal, I don't use it As for the sausages....they're all lips and ear lobes
Cheers
Helen

Hi Helen, there wasn't a time I couldn't get the Hyundai started, it was just that it took a helluva lot more cranking than usual when it was -15.

I remember when I first started driving in the early 80's seeing what I thought was a lorry on fire, it turned out that the driver was burning pallets under the frozen diesel tank to thaw it.

I have seen a suggestion from the US to use a ceramic flower pot, with charcoal burning, topped with a tile to act as a sump heater.

You clearly experienced a temperature inversion where the cold air sinks to low ground, one guy with a sister in Alaska got a panicked call from her as her steering had stiffened up.

It runs out she had been skiing and as she drove home downhill it was getting colder, a mere -50C

She had to drive uphill and let the fluid warm up before she attempted it again.

We are lucky to have such a moderate climate, for the moment......

Hi Helen,

((( we hope to buy a large autostart Genny for emergency use, and many of them run on diesel as well)))


Why not put the generator and fuel tank in one of your barns with an auld cow,problem solved..

Cheers..

Hi Teenmal
We are looking at a large genny later this year, and i'll experiment with the additives...quite a few gennys run on diesel, and we're looking at auto self-start, and we need something to run quite a variety of loads Yes...it will live in the small barn along with various large tools/ equipment. A lot of rural places in Europe could be potentially cut off in severe weather, and we are currently running extra freezers this year by way of experiment, so that we don't need to get anywhere in severe weather. We will shut one of the freezers down soon, as te worst weather season will be over.We are getting an English wireman round to rig the supply from the genny into the house, and will be chopping out a lot of the 3-phase to the barns....So far we've only had 2 power outages...one over the weekend when the gypsies nicked the overhead cables, as they weigh the copper in for scrap....our house wasn't affected, but they cut our power to repair te neighbours' supplies!...and the cable bandits are getting more frequent
Cheers
Helen

Helen, this blog : http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/ has a lot of info and real life experiences of someone living 'off grid' on a Scottish island, there are lots of links to various other 'off grid' websites which might be of interest.

Hi
Munroman...
Thanks for that link...some friends here lived on one of the far Scottish islands for years, but health problems caused them to move........funnily enough, whilst looking at that link, it reminded me that I had been thinking, recently, that a lot of good manure goes to waste, here, and I had been musing about setting up a digester for methane production....as we had a second septic tank made last summer, and it seems to gas vigorously , so....maybe I can find a generator that would run on a gas or gas mixture!
Cheers
Helen

pm sent.

Hi
Ady...
Thanks....as the frog said : "Reddit Reddit"
Munroman..
Sorry, I missed the post about the Skiing...funnily enough, the area where the Bongo cut out is in a bit of a dip....sometimes looks very ghostly and misty...quite pretty, unless your Bongo starts coughing ....and the frozen snow on the trees lining the road looks like a scene out of the Chronicles of Narnia ( first film)...When it's too bad, I get a taxi, as you can't see the potholes until the traffic has used the road awhile, and the snow and ice has been driven on!
BBBrrrr...great weather for a sled and a team of huskies!
Cheers
Helen

done a bit of digging around and come up with this info.

from one of the top 4 fuel manufacturers/distributors. it applies only to the new fuels that are currently available.and does not include any blended fuel which may contain bio in its content.
any fuel can contain up to 7 per cent bio without declaring so.

fuel waxing/freezing is measured in CFPP-- cold filter plugging point. so you may wish to look for this phrase in your local fuel helen.
the summer diesel cfpp is -4 deg c, and winter diesel is -12 deg c.

this applies to uk fuels only,as we are the only eu country that has moved to low sulpher diesel/gas oil, of 10miligrams of sulpher per kilo of fuel. the rest of the eu is still using/making it to our old spec of 1000 milligrams of sulpher per kilo.

you may find this webby informative as it claims to be able to reduce the temp of cfpp considerably,but it also quotes a winter cfpp of -17 for winter diesel/gas oil ?? .
they also have a range of products for enhancing performance, and removal of sludge/varnish, and debugging fuel in your tanks which is apparently going to be a problem when the fuel is warmed in summer.
have a look and see what you think.
fastexocet.co.uk.

regards ady.

Hi Ady
That's interesting
I am not sure what the fuel is in common use here, as it varies from station to station. Funnily enough, some time back when we came here, I found diesel varied in it's power across Europe from make to make, and Shell and Lukoil (Russian) was the best...the Bongo was well overloaded, plus a caravan , again overloaded, and the outfit needed every help it could get, and the difference in fuel seemed much more noticeable...I ended up only looking for signs to the next Shell / Lukoil station....However, I have Lukoil in the tank at the moment, and although the Bongo started at minus 8 yesterday, it coughed and cut out. I expect the fuel filter was clogged. It was reading minus 8 on the engine block, but the previous night it had been minus 13 with 100% humidity, giving a chill of minus 17...not extraordinarily cold, but the fuel didn't like it, and the air was thick white fog, and a bit sore to breathe!...When the fuel has waxed up, you have to have temperatures above minus 8 for quite some time for the wax to return to solution, and yesterday was a no-no. I'm hoping to try some of these additives next time we get a cold snap, as I want to test it in a Genny.
Funnily enough, I have some information from the net on Rompetrol...a fairly new name from Romania, which I expect will catch on across Europe. They are happy to put out information on their products, and appear to supply to Bulgaria, with 2 Winter diesels ( I expect that one is commercial). As your information suggests, quite a few firms are putting a higher bio-content in their diesel, and the Government here said that they planned to ensure a higher content ( I seem to remember, now, that was the plan), and knowing this lot, I expect that diesel will be full of Tom Tit, so I will try to get diesel modifiers sent over, PLUS fill only with Rompetrol fuels, which I am supposing may skirt the regulations here!
Thanks again for the info. Knowledge is good!!!!
Cheers
Helen

You could install a Webasto heater to keep the car warm ready for starting.

But then that runs on diesel too. Doh

But seriously, it would make an interesting project to fit some kind of 'greenhouse heater' and/or electric blanketing that could be plugged into the household supply. As regards windchill, I'd have thought the Bongo was much less of a problem than a front engined car. If you lagged th diesel tank except for the top bit (under the floor), and then fitted your electric blanket thing over the top of the tank, and under the floor, you should get a good result.

I used to have a Norton 650SS motorcyle that ran on straight 50 oil (for lubrication, not fuel ). On cold winter mornings it was impossible to kick over and start as the oil was so viscous. So I put a parabolic heater next to it, running off a timer switch set to switch the heater on 30 mins before I needed to go to work on it the bike. Worked a treat