Cold Weather caution

[Harry]

The current cold snap has brought to mind my first ever bongo overheat back in ancient history.

Scenario: First severe frost following a summer/autumn driving back and forth to Southern France from the Lake District every couple of weeks.
Anti freeze practically non existant having frequently topped with water during a long hot holiday season.

What happened?
Sub zero early morning....drove about five hilly/fast miles fully loaded before noticing steam/water vapour coming from under bonnet. Pulled in immediately and decided to let things cool down before removing coolant tank lid. Steam escaping under pressure from coolant overflow vent.

Checked hoses for leaks...no leaks but bottom hose ICE COLD and RIGID.

Once steam had subsided topped up tank with warm water from kettle. Didn't know about bleeding in them days. Rechecked hoses and found bottom hose was no longer cold and was now flexible.

Conclusion (later confirmed by garage) was that the bottom hose had frozen solid thus preventing circulation of coolant when the thermostat should have opened as engine reached working temp. Bottom hose had thawed out whilst we had stopped due to heat from engine.

Moral....make sure that your anti freeze is up to strength and make sure it has circulated throughout the system.

good luck

H

[Bob]

Wise words Mate.

[kawasaki kid]

Good tip Harry - wonder how many vans have had the antifreeze strength checked this year. check mine every year as where I work it gets ice cold winds in the winter. Better safe than sorry.

[Ron Miel]

Did the same in the foul winter of 1955/56, in days when you couldn't get anti-freeze, so we had to fully drain off every night that it might freeze - making a nice skating rink in the process Filled up with water again one morning - it immediately froze solid in the block. Drove a few miles (in a 15cwt Ford van belonging to my first employer Taylor Woodrow), before the radiator top tank itself (I think) split and emptied all over the (in-cab) engine, giving my passenger and I an instant sauna - except that, in those far off days, nobody had heard of saunas. Worked out well, got a Mk 1 Land Rover to replace it

[hembramacho]

I tested mine with one of these - just the job.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_229902

Andrew

[mikeonb4c]

I tested mine with one of these - just the job.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_229902

Andrew

Interesting and cheap device. I note it says only suitable for use wih ethylene glycol type anti-freeze, but I thought I'd read on another thread here that e/g type antifreeze is becoming increasingly rare?

[Ron Miel]

Propylene glycol is the rarity now. Ethylene glycol is the norm.

[mikeonb4c]

Propylene glycol is the rarity now. Ethylene glycol is the norm.

Have to dash and do Christmas chores but it might be worth checking that recent exceeelnt find about not mixing different types of antifreeze. I thought it emerged in that discussion that both types were losing favour. But given my poor memory I wouldn't like to make a categorical statement without checking. It is curious though why Halfords felt the need to point out its unsuitability with ethylene glycol doncha think?

[helen&tony]

Hi
I did the antifreeze last year, but I usually check by putting some in the freezer...most freezers freeze to minus 18 if you put them on maximum freeze, and I put a thermometer by the container to make sure! However, my plan , now, is to replace every other year...according to maker's spec.
Cheers
Helen

[mikeonb4c]

Managed to sneak a break from chores

I've found the 'alarm bell' piece, from Dandywarhol, on the 'steel seal' thread, where Bongoben put up some excellent info on anti-freeze:

........and if that wasn't enough there's ADVANCED OAT (Organic acid Technology). Its got a "Highly reactive new chemical additive package with explicitly superior corrosion protection"
It is designed specifically for V.A.G. Group vehicles in 2005 and aimed at the larger engines in their range - 6,8,10 cylinder models.

With over 70% of vehicles in the E.U. using OAT or advanced OAT then good old green or blue will soon be harder to obtain and more expensive IMO.

It does sound as though both types of glycol may have numbered days if what Dandy says is true - this would explain the Halfords disclaimer. Discarding the sales line for OAT, I guess envirionmental factors may be driving this change? I find all this quite disconcerting when - so often - the new 'green' solution either proves less effective (anyone got a view on the effectiveness of water based wood preservative compared with creosote? I know I do! ) or - in the case of antifreeze - we hear that mixing new types with old types can cause a system blocking sludge to form

[Ron Miel]

Managed to sneak a break from chores

I've found the 'alarm bell' piece, from Dandywarhol, on the 'steel seal' thread, where Bongoben put up some excellent info on anti-freeze:

........and if that wasn't enough there's ADVANCED OAT (Organic acid Technology). Its got a "Highly reactive new chemical additive package with explicitly superior corrosion protection"
It is designed specifically for V.A.G. Group vehicles in 2005 and aimed at the larger engines in their range - 6,8,10 cylinder models.

With over 70% of vehicles in the E.U. using OAT or advanced OAT then good old green or blue will soon be harder to obtain and more expensive IMO.

It does sound as though both types of glycol may have numbered days if what Dandy says is true - this would explain the Halfords disclaimer. Discarding the sales line for OAT, I guess environmental factors may be driving this change? I find all this quite disconcerting when - so often - the new 'green' solution either proves less effective (anyone got a view on the effectiveness of water based wood preservative compared with creosote? I know I do! ) or - in the case of antifreeze - we hear that mixing new types with old types can cause a system blocking sludge to form

Not sure what you meant in earlier post above, by "It is curious though why Halfords felt the need to point out its unsuitability with ethylene glycol doncha think?" If that referred to the Halfords anti-freeze tester web link we had been given, that pointed out its unsuitability for use with methanol.

Re the conclusion drawn by dandywarhol above, I think there was another long thread this year, roughly on this topic - more directly, orange/red versus green/blue, I seem to remember (prompted, I think, by somebody topping up with orange in Europe - was that also dandywarhol?). Anyway, I pointed out then that longlife green ethylene glycol based anti-freeze (e.g., Comma 3 years Xtralife) is still very much cheaper than the reds and the oranges, however much they are hyped, and is therefore still very much alive and kicking. Certainly, car manufacturers have recently made it more difficult to use (top up with) ethylene glycol anti-freeze in new cars, due to their supplying red/orange OAT as original issue - but then nobody's got a new Bongo.

So, unless and untiil the OAT price falls significantly, and/or glycol based anti-freeze does disappear, there's really no good reason for Bongos to switch away from blue/green, which remains readily available - hence the Halfords ethylene glycol anti-freeze tester.

Meanwhile, there have been legal class actions in the US, alleging widespread inlet manifold failures, resulting from problems with GM's OAT based antifreeze.

[mikeonb4c]

Sorry Ron - I took the 'specially designed for use with ethylene glycol' statement, combined with the warning below, as enough to warrant flagging it up to members. I wasn't aware that methanol per se was being used as a/f and so wondered if Halfords two statements might be linked.

I can't comment about the wisdom of using OATS, though the problems you mention concerning OAT in your post does make it sound like some issue such as 'green' concern is pushing too far ahead of R&D.

I'm guessing, but is the Halfords device a hydrometer, intended to work with fluids within a specific gravity range? It may be that using the likes of Motormax could distort its accuracy? Might be best to check if not done already.

[mikexgough]

If you ask a decent motor factor or Motor shop...... they will ask what vehicle you have.... for example .... you could say Mazda Bongo..... but then add that it has the same 2.5 diesel engine as a Ford Ranger ..... then they will tell you what Coolant/Antifreeze is needed.... in this case it is the Red coolant ( I used Comma Premium Red 5 year - but will change 2 yearly) that is recommended for the Ranger WL-T engine......... now for the 2.5 V6 engine.... I could not say without asking......

[Ron Miel]

Boxing Day morning. Everybody else in the house still sleeping it off. Good time to try to get our heads round this a bit more - I hope you're up and about, also fretting about it, Mike and Mike

Heres' some relevant, hopefully interesting, web pages - which I've also given numbers to, for simplified reference below.

1.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze

2.) http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Organic_Acid_Technology

3.) http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us120426.htm

4.) http://www.sardracing.co.uk/xstream-gre ... -357-p.asp

5.) http://www.sardracing.co.uk/xstream-red ... -359-p.asp

Overall (1,2 and 3), it's a confused picture, as much for the trade with stocking and specifying difficulty, as for us: E.G., "The question is, which type of coolant should you recommend to top off or refill a vehicle? The safe answer is the type specified by the vehicle manufacturer. But practically speaking, shops do not have the shelf space to stock different coolants for each different make of vehicle" (3.)

From that, I infer that you can't necessarily trust what you are told by "a decent motor factor or Motor shop..", as they're most likely to just try to find the nearest fit from what they stock, as opposed to the best choice for the application. Six months ago, I would also have said that they had a vested interest in selling OAT, for higher turnover and margin than from cheaper ethylene glycol. However, red Comma Xstream and green Comma Xstream are now being sold at the same price (4 and 5) - although, whether red Xstream really qualifies as a full-blown OAT coolant, I'm not sure. It's described (5) as "Pure concentrate ethylene glycol, silicate free with Organic Acid Technology". From what it says in 1 though, it's probably the five years extended life which confirms that it is.

OAT is clearly (1 and 2) mainly about extended corrosion inhibition life, and works by the inhibition chemistry being slower acting, therefore longer lasting. That in turn gives fewer toxic chemicals to be disposed of over time, hence the green push on car manufacturers to specify OAT - i.e., it is not due to any intrinsic engine incompatibilty with proven ethylene glycol coolants.

Using 3 year green or 5 year red for only two years is therefore self-defeating, and might even mean that, with the slower acting corrosion inhibitors in red, you won't even get the same degree of protection. I will certainly run my green Xtralife (3 years life), for at least two and a half years, even after recently marginally diluting it with MotorMax. Then I probably will change to 5 years red, still with MotorMax if there are no problems meanwhile, now that green/red after-market prices have apparently harmonised - but I will run it for its specified life, less an adjustment for MotorMax.

I don't think I'll be tempted by the after-market "universal coolants" also being offered (3), as I reckon they're more for the convenience of the trade, with their stocking problems, than for us.

BTW, the only significant problem with mixing red/orange, with green/blue, seems to be how do you then know what the remaining service life of the mix will be? Methanol (very toxic) is used as anti-freeze only in non-coolant applications, such as screen wash, de-icer, etc. (1), Mike.

[mikeonb4c]

I shouldn't be sitting here reading this - I'm supposed to be washing up all yesterdays stuff and getting the kitchen straight

A very interesting post Ron. If I understand you correctly, the idea floating round on BF that mixing certain different types of anti-freeze could cause a sludge forming reaction, could well be a myth. It would certainly help me to know that what I bought at Halfords (must nip in the garage and check what it is - I bought it 12 months ago when I was supposed to do my coolant change )

As to what a/f to use, your post seems to suggest to me that whatever I've bought should more or less do. Also, it makes me feel a little better about not having done mine @ 2yrs (mine is now 3 yrs old).

Was hoping to do it (a/f change) this week, weather permitting, but heard on the radio this morning that another big freeze is heading our way come Tuesday. Brrrrrr - it may have to wait yet again

Turning back to the hydrometer, I wonder just how useful it really is. I'm trying to think how it will be helpful in informing on how exhausted the anti-corrosion properties of the coolant is (the main reason for changing the coolant?) , and if the concentration reading is a reflection of the specific gravity then different types of antifreeze may give different apparent results, especially if something like Motormax has been added (assuming its specific gravity is significantly different from ethylene glycol a/f, but since there is often a link between thermal capacity and specific gravity, that seems a real possibility)

A v. useful post, especially if it turns out that (1) changing coolant may not need to be done religously every 2 years and (2) the sludge formation rumours are unfounded.

Must tear myself away and do the the dishes