Bleeding Problems!!!

[ADAMD]

Hello All,
I have finally replaced my cracked cylinder head, but I am stuck in the final stages.

I have fitted a new Radiator and genuine thermostat but during bleeding I cannot get the bottom hose hot.
The radiator fans just seem to come on all the time as the temperature goes uncomfortably high.
I have tried with a new Blueprint Stat, then replaced with a Mazda one.
I have a Mason kit on the gauge.
Plenty of air burps out of the bleed pipe, but the rad/engine top hose appears too have no water in it as it is very easy to squash.

Also water doesnt seem to pump out of the bleed pipe when lowered, as It has done in the past.
I fitted a new pump a couple of years ago.

The pump is the only other thing I can think to replace, is there anyway to check it is doing it's job?

Apart from that, engine runs nicely, but I am losing patience with the whole thing.

Any advise greatly received.
Thanks
Adam

[Northern Bongolow]

break the system at the top hose/head end whilst engine not running to establish if system is full to that point,if not fill here,take off bottom hose to see iff you have flow out of engine,must admit sounds very strange,what bleed method are you using?
even if the pump is not running the system should fill,

[ADAMD]

I am using Haydns set of instructions, funnel in bleed pipe etc.
I have removed pipe at head, and coolant has come out, but it is in no way full of coolant.
Thanks

Adam

[missfixit70]

It does sound like the pump may be goosed.
Why did it overheat in the first place?
Are the heater matrixes clear? any blockages etc here will cause problems.
Disconnect hoses at various points & flush through to make sure there's no crap blocking/left in the system.
May be a good idea to pressure test it too, to make sure it's all tight.

[mikeonb4c]

I agree with Ady and Kirsty - annoying though it is I think you have to trace through the system to see if the system is both filling and flowing OK. If it offers any encouragement I'm hugely impressed that you've got the new head on and engine running nicely. Keep on going and I can't think why we shouldn't overcome the final obstacle.

[ADAMD]

Thanks for the kind words, i shall get back to it and report back.
Adam

[Simon Jones]

When you refill, start with the rad cap off so you can see when its full, then put the cap on. Also, I don't recall the water pumping out of the bleed pipe (except when the system was pressurised due to head gasket failure). I seem to recall that when I rev'ed the engine, it creates a slight vacuum so I wouldn't expect coolant to pour out. Are you bleeding it with the expansion tank cap on or off?

[ADAMD]

Simon, i have tried both ways in desperation!! Should it be off??

[Bob]

Adam, have you got the Fact Sheet from the Member's area?

As Mike says, well done so far.

[ADAMD]

I have the fact-sheet, and have successfully bled before.

I went back out and removed the hose at the head, drivers side.
Hose was fairly full of coolant, and it started to leak from the metal head connector.
I then put an old bottom hose on the head pipe and pointed it up wars so I could fill the head.
As soon as I put some in, the bottom hose started to overflow, so I assumed we were quite full.
I then went through Haydens bleed instructions, got a bit of air out, but I had got most out last time.
Ran for about 40 mins, Mason modified gauge read straight up , 12 o clock max.
Fans kept coming on, bottom hose very cold, bottom of stat housing cold to touch.
(I had tested both new stats in pan with thermometer, both opened spot on 82 deg)

Took it for 20 min drive, watching temp gauge all the time, flat with traffic and a fairly steep hill twice.
At top of hill gauge went just over 12.00, not much.
Heaters hot front and back.
Bottom hose cold, stat housing cold.

Fed up with it now, don't want to damage new head.
Anyone know a specialist in the Brighton Area??

Thanks for everyone's input.
Adam

[Northern Bongolow]

just a couple of observations from your description of your bleed,
what stat are you using,in my opinon ONLY USE GEN MAZDA.
if your fans come on at mason reading 12 oclock,something is def wrong,stat not working rad blocked.bottom hose air locked (try squeezing or pumping it) heater circuit blocked,gauge faulty.

follow these pointers and come back please.
remove as many pipes as you can to establish flow around each part of the coolant system.
a simple pan test is virtually meaningless,as the stat behaves diferently in the housing,see recent threads by steve widdowson and kirsty on stat comparisons.
make sure the stat top port from head is clean.
connect all hoses and remove both caps.
remove bleed hose bung,keep the open end higher than the expansion tank level,connect funnel.
fill system through rad top untill full,then cap the rad.
continue fill through the expansion tank,
hold funnel at same height as high mark in expansion,
start engine let tick over,air should be observed in the funnel,continue to fill via expansion tank as air escapes,
you will reach a point where little or no more air is being expelled,at this point top up the expansion tank ABOVE THE HIGH MARK
the bottom hose should now be very slightly warm,NOT HOT YET.
PUT SOME REVS ON NOW TO BUILD UP THE COOLANT TEMP
the gauge should now read about 12 oclock,carry on with the revs untill the funnel gets nearly to hot to hold,at this point the stat top disc will shut the top port in the housing and remove the last BURP of air,
cap of expansion tank.
replace bleed bung WARNING ITS HOT
job done
let me know how you get on please
regards ady









when full

[ADAMD]

Thanks Ady, that is the procedure I have followed several times now, with two different stats, Blueprint and Mazda.
I cleaned the sealing face in the stat housing.
However long I bleed for, the bottom hose is always very cold.
And Radiator fans come on a lot.

I have no reason to suspect the pump is faulty, but I am desperate and have no other major component left to change (rad is new).
Is there a hose I can disconnect to see that the pump is moving coolant effectively?
The pump is pretty simple, I did think I could just inspect the Impeller blades - it is only 2 yrs old though.

I cant think of much else to try.

Adam

[Northern Bongolow]

to be honest i have not had a pump fail completly,so i canot guess at the implications during bleeding,i can only guess!!
the system should however bleed ,
just had a brain storm.

if the pump /engine has been stood during head rebuild its possible that the pump has seized in it housing,furred up and stuck really,suggest you confirm that the pump is turning

[Simon Jones]

The impeller is firmly fixed to the pulley-driven shaft, so as long as the pulley is rotating, I reckon, the pump will be working. I've got an engine in the garage that hasn't run for over a year. When I removed the pump, there was some fresh rust inside the block, but the impeller was still in very good nick & turned freely.

We've got a Golf GTi & the plastic impeller came off the shaft (common fault) & it was obvious from the temp gauge (heavily damped unlike yours with a Mason alarm) that there was a problem. As soon as you put your foot down, the gauge went straight up & when you decelerated it dropped back down again.

Your temp gauge isn't moving much which suggests it's not getting too hot. The bottom hose never really gets hot, probably luke warm is the closest you'll get. With my Mason alarm, I can tell when the 'stat is opening as you see the gauge get to about 1 o'clock & then drop down quite rapidly to 12 o'clock.

If you've bled it thoroughly, let it go cold & topped up the expansion tank (it usually drops a little), then it sounds like everything is working correctly.

[widdowson2008]

just had a brain storm.

if the pump /engine has been stood during head rebuild its possible that the pump has seized in it housing,furred up and stuck really,suggest you confirm that the pump is turning

Agree - see if the pump is running. As Kirsty said at the beginning, 'sounds as if it could be goosed'.
But how do you check its doing its thing? (in fact, this is the question ADAMD asked right at the start.)
Just been out and had a look at mine - With the engine running and the expansion tank filler cap off, I would have thought I would see some sort of disturbance in the coolant but can't see any.
I then felt the hoses after a couple of minutes running and:
- Radiator top hose warm
- Feed to expansion tank warm
- feed out of expansion tank warm
This suggests that coolant is moving through these pipes and around the tank. (I think Just a guess)
If that is true, and ADAMD is getting the same, could we say his pump is working?