Interesting article on COOLANTS

[Ron Miel]

OAT doesn't necesarily mean with silicate additive Ste, especially if from Japan:

>
>"....They never relied on silicates because their coolant technology was specifically developed for aluminum engines. In this context, silicates were unnecessary and undesirable because of their abrasiveness (which attacks water pump seals). Japanese engineers also avoided borates (a form of inorganic additive) because they are abrasive and less effective than phosphates....."
>
>

Silicate additive to some (most European) OATs are the issue, not OATs as such, so if you've got a silicate free OAT mix, then no problem in the present context. I still want advice from the horse's mouth though - which I will pass on to peeps who, of course, will make their own decisions. If it's adverse, I won't abandon my nearly new silicone hoses, I'll just drain, flush, switch to ethylene glycol, do my own air bleed, and settle for two years protection life with an easier mind.

EDIT: No data at the Carplan website, except: "Not suitable for Classic Cars" (Silicated? I would ask them.)

[Ron Miel]

Hi,

Could anybody tell me what this means.


The label (WLO1A) under the bonnet states.

NOTES ON ADDING OR CHANGING COOLANT.

Follow the instructions in the workshop manual.

USE HIGH-QUALITY ETHYLENE GLYCOL anti-freeze coolant FOR ALUMINUM ENGINE.


Cheers..

My guess would be that it originally meant just that - use plain old ethylene glycol two years life coolant. That's consistent with the handbook, which says change Bongo coolant every two years. However, more modern OAT long-life coolants are mainly also ethylene glycol based but with organic acid and other corrosion inhibitors added and, argued out very carefully here in the past, as long as not intermixed with non-OATs, they could also be safely used in Bongos, with service life advantages - that is until this silicate vs silicone issue just reared its ugly head. How much of a problem with silicone hoses? I reckon the jury is now out, and hopefully I can get an answer in terms of G48 Glysantin mix, at least.

[mikexgough]

No data at the Carplan website, except: "Not suitable for Classic Cars" (Silicated? I would ask them>)

Premium red is Silicate and borate free....... as for Classic cars.... OAT is not suitable die to copper and brass radiators as it attacks the solder used.... OAT based coolants are only okay in vehicles with Aluminium Radiators.....
I did e-mail Tetrosyl to ask about Bluecol and Carplan coolants....

Mazda Factory coolant is FL 22............ and the early (pre 2006) is green,2006 on is Blue coloured BUT as we all know the colour is not as important as the chemistry....

The "standard green" coolant in Pre-2005 Mazda's is Mazda Long Life Coolant (LLC), a first generation Japanese P-OAT (phosphated organic acid technology) coolant developed by CCI Corporation, the leading coolant manufacturer in Japan. It uses a completely different chemistry from traditional North American/European green coolant, which is laden with silicates and borates.
Mazda LLC contains no silicates and no borates, but lots of phosphates and some organic acids. It has essentially the same chemistry as Toyota Long Life Coolant (also developed by CCI) which is described in patent disclosure as "an organic acid based coolant containing benzoic acid, phosphoric acid, molybdate, azoles, 2-phosphono-butane-1,2,4-tricarboxylic acid, nitrate, dye, antifoam, and water soluble calcium and magnesium salts".

The best replacement for Mazda LLC is Mazda Extended LIfe Coolant (ELC), Type FL22, which is a second generation Japanese P-OAT coolant introduced in the 2006 model year. It is also available in rebranded form as Motorcraft Specialty Green Engine Coolant because Ford recently adopted it as factory fill in vehicles equipped with engines jointly developed by Ford and Mazda.

Needless to say..........it is FL 22 or the nearest chemistry ......

Bluecols website claims "Green antifreeze contains silicates, phosphates and borates as corrosion inhibitors to keep the solution alkaline." so I guess before you refill with any coolant...... check the chemistry as Universal is sometimes not universal.
I have made contact "Down Under" and from the response I have had there seems to be some choice down there in OZ but NZ seems only to have one type for sale, being a Green Universal that claims is okay for all engines. When I get more info......or answers to questions, I will post

[Ron Miel]

OAT doesn't necesarily mean with silicate additive Ste, especially if from Japan:

>
>"....They never relied on silicates because their coolant technology was specifically developed for aluminum engines. In this context, silicates were unnecessary and undesirable because of their abrasiveness (which attacks water pump seals). Japanese engineers also avoided borates (a form of inorganic additive) because they are abrasive and less effective than phosphates....."
>
>

Silicate additive to some (most European) OATs are the issue, not OATs as such, so if you've got a silicate free OAT mix, then no problem in the present context.......
>
>
EDIT: No data at the Carplan website, except: "Not suitable for Classic Cars" (Silicated? I would ask them.)

According to mikexgough's excellent latest post, your Carplan Red is silicate (and borate) free, so I guess you're home and dry as far as any silicone hose issues might have been concerned, Ste. If the advice from Comma is eventually either dump silicone hoses, or G48 Glysantin, I'll keep the hoses and switch over from G48 to the Carplan Red, myself. If I don't get clear advice one way or t'other, I'll play safe and assume a need to change, anyway.

[bigdaddycain]

Thanks Dave. I'm certainly no chemist (i was lousy at that in school, hence the need for the rebuilt chemistry lab ) But i'm quietly confident insofar as by my reckoning, my bongo has had the silicone hoses fitted for quite some years now,and i made the change to carplan's red premium coolant at the same time as the hoses were fitted. It wasn't a case of it was the cheapest/nearest to hand/most convenient coolant available (in fact it's a tad more expensive than the regular coolant) But i based my decision on my understanding of the available coolants at the time, and the best suitability for the given application. Carplan red glows a vivid pink under UV light too, which i found a handy benefit when i play the UV torch under the bongo every now and then.

Touchwood, so far... I've had no leaks, (except an under-tightened jubilee clip discovered shortly after the hose change). The coolant certainly still appears to be as fresh as the day it was replaced. I'd say the ONLY side issue i've had was the odd murmur from the LCA once. It turned out that the threads of the screws to the LCA terminals (in my case) weren't up to the job, Mikexgough kindly sourced me some better grade stainless screws, and i've had no issues since!

Great post by the way Mike, very informative!

[Ron Miel]

Yes, it was a very good one from Mike. In fact, this whole thread is extremely useful, and has been long overdue, so Haydn, who started it, is a good man too - but we know that, don't we?

Was a bit concerned that your good experience, now explained, had lead you to (almost) suggest that the thread was just about "the latest forum fad", so am glad there's now been a coherent explanation of why you've got it right and needn't yourself be concerned. I'm also no chemist Ste (although my blowing up was limited to finding a live .303 round as a kid in WWII, and testing it on our living room fire - scattered the fire and nearly burnt the house down ) but there's quite a lot of background stuff out there, as well as here, which says take the silicate/borate issue a bit seriously - so I am doing.

There's two very useful bits of info in your own reply:

1.) Carplan Red glows well under UV - used my spare (ex Haydn) tracer dye in the hoses/coolant change in August, so am glad to know I won't need a replacement if I switch to Carplan Red. Should have said earlier that Comma's Glysantin G30 red OAT coolant is also silicate and borate free, so it's probably equally suitable - would have to ask about the tracer glow characteristic though.

2.) Important one about the LCA terminal screws - will also replace with stainless steel. Shows how reactive these OAT coolants can be if inappropriately used. Hope Haydn's aware.

Cheers, D

[haydn callow]

The terminal screws are A4 316 stainless...don't change them unless they get dirty/coated then a clean will fix

[Ron Miel]

Thanks Haydn. Maybe BDC referred to a different LCA then.

[haydn callow]

No we have always used SS screws...Firstly A2 stainless which is fine then A4 which is better quality but not reall required in the enviroment of the header tank.

What actually happens is (we are pretty certain but not absolutly) is that with these OAT coolants when the coolant is new it coats the inside of the system with a very thin protective layer..(you would have to find someone a bit more tec'ie to explain exactly how this works) (one thing it does do is protect around the water pump against cavitation bubbles and probably around the stat housing)
This protective coat and it seems COMMA coolant is the best/worst can also coat the LCA screws and build up a resistive coat which "can" cause the alarm to murmer....Just replacing/cleaning the screw will fix this problem....

I would not advise anyone to change the screws unless they are sure of the size/thread and quality of the screw they are fitting......these alarms are calibrated to the screw size?quality we supply..

If you measure the voltage between the screw head and earth...you should read around 1.5/1.8 volts....as resistance builds up this voltage will increase slowly untill the "trigger" voltage of the alarm is reached . this is 2.4/2.8 or therabouts...best advice is not to mess with the screws unless you contact me for replacment or just clean them...most systems will NOT require this
...

[Ron Miel]

Again thanks Haydn. All is clear then, except how it actually works. Are you saying that once coated, and then cleaned, the screws will not again get resistively coated - i.e., the OAT chemical deposition seems to stop, once the coolant is no longer "new"? Or does the cleaning off seem to need doing periodically until the OAT is chemically depleted? It's a minor point but, in the context of all the above, interesting.

[haydn callow]

That we don't really know for sure but I put Comma OAT in my bongo and within 2 weeks it was murmerring.....I cleaned the screw which cured the problem instantly and now 2 months later it is still working perfectly...So that implies to me that after a very short period of time the OAT coolant has used up it's "coating" properties.....I only personally have experience of Comma OAT and other brands and IAT coolants have not reported problems....
Normally when a alarm starts murmurring it is because of a dirty system/mixed coolants.

These are just my observations and I cannot really prove them

I still want to get the stuff out of my system as it's "possible" incompatability with Silicone worries me and I would rather not take any risk that can be avoided. It may be a waste of £25's worth of coolant and a couple of hours but degrading any Silicone that may be in contact with the coolant is a far more expensive prospect...

This is not scaremongering on my behalf....just passing on what I have observed and turned up on the 'tinternet...........take it or leave it.....

[Allans]

"dandywarhol said" Diesel engines tend to be "wet" liner engines which have rubber seals sealing the cylinder liner from the crankcasings - I can't find any info in the Lushprojects diagrams to prove or disprove that.

Maybe Allan can tell us - he'll have lifted a few heads in his time.....................

It's a solid block.

[haydn callow]

If anyone can tell me that a V6 has no silicone seals etc in contact with the coolant that would indeed be good news.

[Ron Miel]

That we don't really know for sure but I put Comma OAT in my bongo and within 2 weeks it was murmerring.....I cleaned the screw which cured the problem instantly and now 2 months later it is still working perfectly...So that implies to me that after a very short period of time the OAT coolant has used up it's "coating" properties.....I only personally have experience of Comma OAT and other brands and IAT coolants have not reported problems....
Normally when a alarm starts murmurring it is because of a dirty system/mixed coolants.

These are just my observations and I cannot really prove them

I still want to get the stuff out of my system as it's "possible" incompatability with Silicone worries me and I would rather not take any risk that can be avoided. It may be a waste of £25's worth of coolant and a couple of hours but degrading any Silicone that may be in contact with the coolant is a far more expensive prospect...

This is not scaremongering on my behalf....just passing on what I have observed and turned up on the 'tinternet...........take it or leave it.....

Thanks for the further info re the coating effect. Makes sense, I think, and as well to be aware.

Re your last sentence, absolutely agree - it's good useful peepinfo, and not scaremongering. I'm certainly taking it seriously.

Have also been PM'ing away behind the scenes, plus some independent reading, and it seems that "green" hybrid OATs (silicate/borated European greens anyway, e.g. G48 Glysantin) also have some history of doing harm to ally blocks and heads but that seems to no longer be an issue - presumably due to changed formulations, probably including now-reduced abrasive silicate and borate content.

For example, the original Glysantin G48 (used in Comma green Xtralife) 1995 data sheet was re-issued in an all new version in 2002. I'm hopeful that Comma, if/when they reply, will tell me that was the case, and that silicate/silicone interactivity is no longer too much of an issue. If so, I'll confirm here (either way) and I'll then leave the status quo until the motor's annual service next summer, only changing then to silicate free red, e.g., Carplan Premier Red or Comma G30 red.

[Triple/R]

Just when i thought it was "safe to go back into the water"~~this topic turn's up i'm (if you like) just getting my head around "how to bleed" now it's what antifreeze to use

Seriously anyone looking to buy a Bongo,looking on this forum i think they'd change there mind.

when i first purchased mine i was dead chuffed~the way it looked~drove etc; i thought i was just buying another car/van (whatever) but to read the stories on here i think i've bought something from another planet.

I can't treat it like an ordinary vehicle cus like me most have been brainwashed with all the horror stories etc;

I really want to enjoy what i've got & sleep at night~~so your probably thinking why do i keep coming on the forum~~~well as i've said i've been Brainwashed.

A note to MikexGough~~think i will buy another MONDEO