Oil, Oil filter, Air filter & other maintenance

[mikeonb4c]

I've got one question about the Pela pump:

I was always under the impression that the sump plug was situated where it was to allow any sludge that has built up to drain away more easily; do the Pela pumps remove that as well?

I think it is unlikely that if there is sludge in the engine sump, it will be removed by either the traditional sump plug methd or by the Pela, becuase the sump base is more or less flat and sludge doesn't flow at all well, esp. across a flat surface. However, I doubt there is (things being normal) any significant amount of sludge in the sump pan. This is because I can feel my Pela pumps probe tapping on the sump bottom, and yet it still pulls up free flowing oil, which suggests that there is no sludge of significance. The quantity I've pulled up with the Pela seems to match exactly what is said to be the engine oil capacity too (6.2l ignoring the oil filter contents, 6.9l including oil filter contents, so I reckon it is taking everything out. Or, to put it another way, if anything is left it is so thoroughly diluted by the new oil as to be of no consequence (the filter hopefully having also done it's job and get any 'bits' from remaining in circulation).

If you have any concerns, then I would think that putting flushing oil through the system as part of the oil change would be the best way to purge any sludge.

If I've got this wrong, perhaps one of the pro mechanics on here could correct me. Personally, I'm 100% happy to rely on the Pela. If it was good enough for Smart cars (the early versions of which didn't have a sump plug - I bought mine 2nd hand long ago from a Smart car owner), it'll do for me

[bigdaddycain]

I've got one question about the Pela pump:

I was always under the impression that the sump plug was situated where it was to allow any sludge that has built up to drain away more easily; do the Pela pumps remove that as well?

I think it is unlikely that if there is sludge in the engine sump, it will be removed by either the traditional sump plug methd or by the Pela, becuase the sump base is more or less flat and sludge doesn't flow at all well, esp. across a flat surface. However, I doubt there is (things being normal) any significant amount of sludge in the sump pan. This is because I can feel my Pela pumps probe tapping on the sump bottom, and yet it still pulls up free flowing oil, which suggests that there is no sludge of significance. The quantity I've pulled up with the Pela seems to match exactly what is said to be the engine oil capacity too (6.2l ignoring the oil filter contents, 6.9l including oil filter contents, so I reckon it is taking everything out. Or, to put it another way, if anything is left it is so thoroughly diluted by the new oil as to be of no consequence (the filter hopefully having also done it's job and get any 'bits' from remaining in circulation).

If you have any concerns, then I would think that putting flushing oil through the system as part of the oil change would be the best way to purge any sludge.

If I've got this wrong, perhaps one of the pro mechanics on here could correct me.

[mikeonb4c]

I've got one question about the Pela pump:

I was always under the impression that the sump plug was situated where it was to allow any sludge that has built up to drain away more easily; do the Pela pumps remove that as well?

I think it is unlikely that if there is sludge in the engine sump, it will be removed by either the traditional sump plug methd or by the Pela, becuase the sump base is more or less flat and sludge doesn't flow at all well, esp. across a flat surface. However, I doubt there is (things being normal) any significant amount of sludge in the sump pan. This is because I can feel my Pela pumps probe tapping on the sump bottom, and yet it still pulls up free flowing oil, which suggests that there is no sludge of significance. The quantity I've pulled up with the Pela seems to match exactly what is said to be the engine oil capacity too (6.2l ignoring the oil filter contents, 6.9l including oil filter contents, so I reckon it is taking everything out. Or, to put it another way, if anything is left it is so thoroughly diluted by the new oil as to be of no consequence (the filter hopefully having also done it's job and get any 'bits' from remaining in circulation).

If you have any concerns, then I would think that putting flushing oil through the system as part of the oil change would be the best way to purge any sludge.

If I've got this wrong, perhaps one of the pro mechanics on here could correct me.

what did I do?

I'll fetch me coat.......

But seriously, if Allan, Julian, Paul, Dandy, Alacrity etc. were to give a view, it would be useful, as I don't claim to know what is right and what is wrong

[binky]

I'm always intrigued by 'sludge' in engines. If the oil filter is working it will take out particles down to 10 microns. If.

So, there should be very little sludge (suspended particles) in a modern engine. However we all know that what comes out of engine sumps more often looks like the bottom of a pond, if the vehicle hasn't been looked after. My main dealer 'serviced' VW turbo engine, for instance.

Much of the sludge /particulate matter in oil from a diesel engine is deeply horrible: alkanes, PAHs, (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons - carcinogens) alkylated PAHs, alkylbenzenes and alkanoic acids (also found in rhubarb!) It takes heap powerful juju in your engine oil to neutralise this stuff to stop it corroding engine internals. A 5-6000 mile oil change with an oil & filter change at 10,000 or so, should see the old bus ticking along for years.

Don't paint your garden fence with old oil, like my father does.

One disadvantage of the Pela pump method is that users seem rarely to pour the oil into a tray to inspect for metal fragments which can clump together in the sump if oil pump flow rates are low. (Another good reason for not 'lugging' the engine.) Most greater than 10 microns should be trapped by the filter and escapees by sump plug magnet ( I hope my Bongo has one) so an eye should be kept on that, annually.

Incidentally, the only way to get engine oil out of a marine diesel engine in many boats up to about 30ft is to pump it out. Removing the sump plug involves taking the bottom of the boat off.

[missfixit70]

Not trying to pass myself off as a "pro mechanic" or anything, but, using the Pela pump should be as good as removing the sump plug if used right. It sucks from the very bottom of the sump, as Mike says you can hear it & feel it touch the bottom. It effectively sucks everything out bar a dribble or two, this is from initial testing when I got my pela from Haydn. I sucked out everything I could, then (as I've always done doing a conventional sump plug oil change) I poured @1/2 a litre of clean oil into the oil filler which is then allowed to settle, this is then sucked out. When the sump plug is then removed to check, there was just a tiny dribble of pretty clean oil.
This also worked on my nephews Rover 214 at the weekend.
I've not seen a Bongo yet that had a magnetic sump plug fitted as standard (neither did the Rover). I stick a magnet on the oil filter.
Having checked it sucks all the oil out, I am happy to use the Pela on a vehicle again without removing the sump plug.
Oil changes are always done with a warm engine.

[brorabongo]

I use a hand pump to remove the bulk of the oil, then remove the sump plug and let it drip for a while. The sump plug was replaced a while back with a magnetic one, which never seems to have any filings stuck to it.

It has a good magnetic strength.......it's a pain in the rear to "start the thread" as the plug gets pulled to the side by the magnetism. It's not made any easier by reaching in to replace it, as you might find you do not need to raise the Bongo off the ground to do the work.

[Jaws]

I always replace oil and filter at the same time for all my vehicles.

Why wouldn't you?

The Pela pump is fantastic: 20min for the whole job!

[Timnz]

I always replace oil and filter at the same time for all my vehicles.

Why wouldn't you?

The Pela pump is fantastic: 20min for the whole job!

The filter is about the same price as the oil, so change the filter every second time to save a bit of money, the filter will still be working effectively after the first 6000km oil change, and less than 1 litre of dirty oil won't contaminate 6 litres very much.. I think it is standard practice on turbo diesels...
Best to change the oil frequently as cost permits...

[helen&tony]

Hi
Agree there Jaws...I do oil and filter at 6000 Km...semi synthetic Elf 10-40 and Mann filters...the engine seems to run well that way.
Cheers
Helen

[mikexgough]

A lot of garages and mechanics use Pela or similar type extractors(airline powered) for oil changes these days...... .....
They do it due to access of some engines, cleanliness etc and many are used by some of the so called Prestige brand garages/specialists....... strangely a similar thread is running on another motoring forum just now too....

[teenmal]

A lot of garages and mechanics use Pela or similar type extractors(airline powered) for oil changes these days...... .....
They do it due to access of some engines, cleanliness etc and many are used by some of the so called Prestige brand garages/specialists....... strangely a similar thread is running on another motoring forum just now too....

HI,
The Mobil Oil Co used coin operated oil change units on Service Stations a few years ago.(a bit of useless information)

Cheers..

[missfixit70]

I always replace oil and filter at the same time for all my vehicles.

Why wouldn't you?

Basically cos it's not necessary, as documented in th Official Mazda Bongo Freindee handbook.

[binky]

I always replace oil and filter at the same time for all my vehicles.

Why wouldn't you?

Basically cos it's not necessary, as documented in th Official Mazda Bongo Freindee handbook.

There are four worthwhile theories of oil & filter change interval, and a thousand worthless ones.

Theory I says that the manufacturer states oil and filter change at 10,000 miles, therefore I can do an interim oil change at half that for more protection, and then change the filter at 10,000 miles or so. Advantages: seems like cheap insurance. Disadavantages: None of us know when the filter is blocked, the bypass valve has opened, and filthy boiling goo is destroying our engines from the inside out.

Theory II says that the filter is as important as the oil, as it is the only item in the engine which keeps the oil operating as oil. There's no point in changing the oil without changing the filter; most engine wear occurs when the filter cannot filter out particles of about 15 microns in size or larger, that being the dimension of the gap between (some) surfaces in an oil lubricated engine. So why not just stick to the manufacturers specs, or bring them forward a bit and change both oil and filter at say, 8000 miles? Advantages: seems like cheap insurance, Disadvantages: Over 50,000 miles you'll have changed the oil and filter 6.2 times, instead of 5 times.

Theory III, used by the US Army, says that with correct filtration, engine oil life is at least 50,000 miles on diesel trucks, and that no oil will be changed unless lab analysis shows contamination or a large reduction in additive performance. The filters, shall however, be changed very regularly and oil levels checked daily. Top-ups keep the additive levels in the correct range. Advantages: on 152,000 six litre trucks, oil sampling is cheaper than replacement. Disadavantages: Each Army depot needs to buy a sampling pump, a pencil and a notebook.

Theory IV - don't bother, it makes no difference. (See below *)

Take yer pick. What none of us do, me included, is to save the money we spend on needless oil changes, and instead send a sample off for analysis. It's easier to change the oil.

In the case of the Bongo, though, sample analysis would also pick up coolant contamination. Any takers?

http://www.theoillab.co.uk/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Consumer Reports, with one of the most widely respected product testing laboratories in the world has just released the results of an extensive test on oil brands and oil changes, as well as other issues regarding car care. In the process, the test demolished much of the conventional wisdom regarding car lubrication. The two most surprising results: the frequency with which oil is changed doesn't matter after the first few oil changes on a new engine, and the type or brand of oil used can not be shown to make any difference.

The testers placed freshly rebuilt engines in 75 New York taxis and then ran them for nearly two years, with each cab racking up 60,000 miles, placing different brands and weights in different cars and changing the oil at 3,000 miles in half the cars and 6,000 in the other half. At the conclusion of the test period, the engines were torn down, measured and inspected. The conclusions: Regardless of brand of oil or weight, no measurable differences could be observed in engine wear. Furthermore, there was no difference among cars which had oil changed at the shorter or longer interval.

Does this have any bearing on the enthusiast's car, which is given almost the opposite usage stored for long periods of time then started and driven for short distances? The tests suggested that our type of usage would build up sludge and varnish, indicating that an annual or semi-annual oil change is a good idea regardless of how much mileage the car is driven. But there is little indication that the brand or weight needs to be given serious consideration, and synthetic oil has no discernible advantage over the old stand-bys. More information on the tests and results can be obtained from Consumers Union or the July issue of Consumer Reports available at most libraries.

Source: British Car Magazine, October-November 1996

[mikeonb4c]

I always replace oil and filter at the same time for all my vehicles.

Why wouldn't you?

Basically cos it's not necessary, as documented in th Official Mazda Bongo Freindee handbook.

There are four worthwhile theories of oil & filter change interval, and a thousand worthless ones.

Theory I says that the manufacturer states oil and filter change at 10,000 miles, therefore I can do an interim oil change at half that for more protection, and then change the filter at 10,000 miles or so. Advantages: seems like cheap insurance. Disadavantages: None of us know when the filter is blocked, the bypass valve has opened, and filthy boiling goo is destroying our engines from the inside out.

Theory II says that the filter is as important as the oil, as it is the only item in the engine which keeps the oil operating as oil. There's no point in changing the oil without changing the filter; most engine wear occurs when the filter cannot filter out particles of about 15 microns in size or larger, that being the dimension of the gap between (some) surfaces in an oil lubricated engine. So why not just stick to the manufacturers specs, or bring them forward a bit and change both oil and filter at say, 8000 miles? Advantages: seems like cheap insurance, Disadvantages: Over 50,000 miles you'll have changed the oil and filter 6.2 times, instead of 5 times.

Theory III, used by the US Army, says that with correct filtration, engine oil life is at least 50,000 miles on diesel trucks, and that no oil will be changed unless lab analysis shows contamination or a large reduction in additive performance. The filters, shall however, be changed very regularly and oil levels checked daily. Top-ups keep the additive levels in the correct range. Advantages: on 152,000 six litre trucks, oil sampling is cheaper than replacement. Disadavantages: Each Army depot needs to buy a sampling pump, a pencil and a notebook.

Theory IV - don't bother, it makes no difference. (See below *)

Take yer pick. What none of us do, me included, is to save the money we spend on needless oil changes, and instead send a sample off for analysis. It's easier to change the oil.

In the case of the Bongo, though, sample analysis would also pick up coolant contamination. Any takers?

http://www.theoillab.co.uk/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Consumer Reports, with one of the most widely respected product testing laboratories in the world has just released the results of an extensive test on oil brands and oil changes, as well as other issues regarding car care. In the process, the test demolished much of the conventional wisdom regarding car lubrication. The two most surprising results: the frequency with which oil is changed doesn't matter after the first few oil changes on a new engine, and the type or brand of oil used can not be shown to make any difference.

The testers placed freshly rebuilt engines in 75 New York taxis and then ran them for nearly two years, with each cab racking up 60,000 miles, placing different brands and weights in different cars and changing the oil at 3,000 miles in half the cars and 6,000 in the other half. At the conclusion of the test period, the engines were torn down, measured and inspected. The conclusions: Regardless of brand of oil or weight, no measurable differences could be observed in engine wear. Furthermore, there was no difference among cars which had oil changed at the shorter or longer interval.

Does this have any bearing on the enthusiast's car, which is given almost the opposite usage stored for long periods of time then started and driven for short distances? The tests suggested that our type of usage would build up sludge and varnish, indicating that an annual or semi-annual oil change is a good idea regardless of how much mileage the car is driven. But there is little indication that the brand or weight needs to be given serious consideration, and synthetic oil has no discernible advantage over the old stand-bys. More information on the tests and results can be obtained from Consumers Union or the July issue of Consumer Reports available at most libraries.

Source: British Car Magazine, October-November 1996

An(other) excellent post from binky, and one that contains few surprises. Perhaps we need Haydn to source an ALOHA(A Low Oil Health Alarm) for our Bongos

Perhaps the most persuasive argument for keeping oil changes regular is contained in the referred to BCM extract, where they say:

The tests suggested that our type of usage would build up sludge and varnish, indicating that an annual or semi-annual oil change is a good idea regardless of how much mileage the car is driven

That, and generally reducing the chances that something deleterious may have got into our oil and may otherwise remain there, should make some obeisance to Mazda's recommended practice a good idea.

But I do recall one owner of a perfectly happily running Bongo saying on here sometime back that they had not changed their engine oil in all the considerable time they had had the car. So if times are tight, maybe the mileage intervals can be extended. More so if the Bongo is not spending much time on short runs with a cold engine ('sludge' I suspect will, where it is found, most likely be oil/water emulsion - relatively free flowing but not good for the engine, although I've never found the slightest evidence of sludge in my short journey making Bongo).

[GowerOsprey]

Wow, thanks for all the info and advice everyone!

I finally got a free hour to change the oil tonight, and using both your advice and the data sheets (I joined the BF site on Friday) it was a doddle! Although I think I will definitely be getting a Pela pump for the next change: my daughter really didn't like not getting a cwtch from me for a while due to my hand and arm being covered in oil when I released the sump plug!!

Next job: change the fuel filter. Not so easy according to the data sheet....

Thanks again everyone, I've learned a lot and you managed to convince me to join the Club, without actually trying to convince me!!